MH 17 "shot down" all dead

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#1092505 20-Jul-2014 14:54

Dynamic:
insane:Maybe airliners need to have some sort of identify friend or foe system in place (if they don't already), but who knows whether a SAM system built in 1969 will be able to observe it.

They seem to have this already, hence flightradar24 and other similar sites being able to identify aircraft in the air.

If some bright spark decided that a secret military aircraft should transmit a civilian-style signature to 'disguise' it, then all aircraft become targets again. I'm sure that the military dudes would not want a nice big electronic bullseye transmitter on their planes.

The only means is to create an enforceable regulator to enforce no fly zones, and these have to cover all conflicts. So what is a conflict? Who can determine what capability any conflict has at their disposal? A complete re write of civil aviation to add to the need for 100% radar coverage as per MH 370. A full re hash of flight routes internationally.

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#1092506 20-Jul-2014 14:57

mattwnz:
tdgeek:
gzt:
networkn: So if Russian is ultimately responsible now, who will "compensate" the families?

The airline and therefore the insurers. If the insurers manage to wiggle out due to an act of war clause (debatable) then financial responsibility will fall back on the airline, and therefore on the government of Malaysia.

As for Russia being found responsible (early days yet) and accepting responsibility, if that should occur in reality that would be a long drawn out diplomatic process which may or may not conclude. Imho it would be unlikely to occur while Putin is at the helm and will probably wait for at least one or two changes of government.

Airlines are due to compensate US$150,000 per passenger. If there was no airline fault, there is no further liability. Agree with Putin comment

How do they come to that figure though? And if they are not liable, why are they paying anything at all, or is that the figure in their T&'C's

That figure is based on aviation regulations to all airlines, it was mentioned on a CNN discussion with aviation experts. An airline is liable to that figure, unless they are at fault.

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#1092511 20-Jul-2014 15:07

tdgeek:
gzt:
tdgeek:
gzt: Police traffic diversion? It's a bad argument. It's not comparable. At the end of the day the airline chose to fly this route and must accept responsibility for what occurred.

Regulators control this. They gave the ok, as would the police in CNN's analogy. If there is a case to answer then its the FAA, ICAO etc. And every other airline would also have to fall to the court in your example

Yes, any other airline making the same decision with the same consequences is legally responsible for the decision. This could have happened to any airline flying that route at that time. This does not change the consequences. They all made a decision to accept that risk.

Yes, court action by the airline or other parties against the Euro regulator may also occur. However compliance with regulation does not mean you can avoid responsibility for events which may occur. You are still liable for your own decisions.

I expect the way airlines transit conflict zones will change significantly after these events. The flying public will demand it.

Watching more of this at cnn, the regulators, FAA, ICAO, EUROPE CONTROL, do not have enforceability over flight zones, meaning that there is no regulation of that point. That has to change, and it, based on this disaster,has to mean that every other conflict has to be red zoned also. Who has to define a conflict zone? Some enforceable regulator, of which there is none at the moment.

Yep exactly. This is pretty much the case for all international type issues in many fields and will remain that way. What will happen is each local regulator defining these areas to avoid in response to public demand and lobbying from airlines to define these to ensure they are operating on an even playing field with competitors.

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#1092560 20-Jul-2014 17:28

Anyone think the root cause of all this might be relevant.
No one is mentioning the recently ( 3 months ago) leaked Victoria Nuland tapes where it is quite obvious the Kiev Government was being 'selected' by foreign interests. Too much for Nz media to cover I guess.
We do far to much political meddling and then get all surprised when the world goes to hell in a handbasket.
meanwhile it's largely innocent civilians that die, time after time after time.

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#1092570 20-Jul-2014 17:45

Mystery: A uk newspaper is reporting based on public flight data services mh17 that day was up to 300 miles north of all previous mh17 flights. A pilot says he would have refused to fly that plan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html

True or not?

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#1092572 20-Jul-2014 17:48

It can't be true if an SQ and AI plane was within 25kms of mh 17

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#1092575 20-Jul-2014 17:51

I am no expert but I imagine Risk management is not a simple process and definitely not black and white.

Say Auckland is surrounded by dormant volcanoes so from tomorrow every insurer says ok we won't insure despite insuring for a century. Everyone is on their own. Or the UN says don't visit Christchurch because there is a chance of a magnitude 7 quake. Or don't fly anyone from country X because one of them could be a terrorist. Or ban quad bikes because it kills.

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#1092588 20-Jul-2014 18:15

gzt: Mystery: A uk newspaper is reporting based on public flight data services mh17 that day was up to 300 miles north of all previous mh17 flights. A pilot says he would have refused to fly that plan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html

True or not?

Not sure,
Democracy now who are pretty impartial just did an interesting little piece with Stephen Cohen.

gzt

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#1092591 20-Jul-2014 18:30

gzt: Mystery: A uk newspaper is reporting based on public flight data services mh17 that day was up to 300 miles north of all previous mh17 flights. A pilot says he would have refused to fly that plan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html

True or not?

joker97: It can't be true if an SQ and AI plane was within 25kms of mh 17

Which raises the question if those were routed differently on previous flights?

gzt

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#1092593 20-Jul-2014 18:32

turnin:
gzt: Mystery: A uk newspaper is reporting based on public flight data services mh17 that day was up to 300 miles north of all previous mh17 flights. A pilot says he would have refused to fly that plan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html

True or not?

Not sure,
Democracy now who are pretty impartial just did an interesting little piece with Stephen Cohen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyUPMv0p0sA&list=PL50BDB9BCCFAF09CA

This video is entirely irrelevant to that question.

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#1092595 20-Jul-2014 18:35

No one knows the answers except those directly involved.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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networkn

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#1092620 20-Jul-2014 19:40

Anyone know how I can tell what route NZ to Singapore, Singapore to Milan takes? I recently won a trip and am feeling a little anxious and I am not the best flyer at the best of times?

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#1092621 20-Jul-2014 19:40

KiwiNZ: No one knows the answers except those directly involved.

From what we know, and the audio/video isn't verified, it certainly appears that Ukranian citizens, fighting as separatists in the civil war, backed by Russia, fired the BUK, not knowing it was a commercial jet. While the crash site is contaminated, it will be forensically easy to determine the BUK was the prime cause. Residue from the missile's explosive, metal bent in by the impact. Assuming thats correct, we are still no closer then we are today. Was it the lack of regulatory and enforceable no fly zones, or MAS for flying there, or Ukraine as it was shot down from their territory by their citizens (I rule that out as the east is out of Kiev control) , or that Russia backed the separatists, or that Russia supplied the missile, or that was the firer Russian or Russian trained?

Sadly, the devastation of the families and friends will be overridden by the political issue. Glad news sources are still focussing on that.

Like all prior air crashes, lessons will be learnt, but should this lesson have needed to be exercised?

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#1092623 20-Jul-2014 19:41

networkn: Anyone know how I can tell what route NZ to Singapore, Singapore to Milan takes? I recently won a trip and am feeling a little anxious and I am not the best flyer at the best of times?

I heard today of a site that does that I'm sure. Maybe on this thread? Worth a Google

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#1092631 20-Jul-2014 19:57

networkn: Anyone know how I can tell what route NZ to Singapore, Singapore to Milan takes? I recently won a trip and am feeling a little anxious and I am not the best flyer at the best of times?

Try http://flightaware.com I recall that was what I read. Go to the Airline Flight Tracker on the left, and on the right are the waypoints. It has a map with the route
If you know the flight numbers, you can get the info you need based on the expected flight plan

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