Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.




Lock him up!
11394 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#257392 30-Sep-2019 18:12
Send private message

There is an item on the news about domestic flights being shut down because of a fire alarm at the radar centre in Christchurch. I know nothing about how this works, but if all flights in the country can be halted because of a smoke alarm, I have to wonder if it is a good idea to have all the country's domestic flight radar centralised in a place known for devastating earthquakes. Is this a good idea? Maybe someone would like to explain the details.

 

  





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
 1 | 2
2924 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Subscriber

  #2327248 30-Sep-2019 18:31
3 people support this post
Send private message

This has been recognised. Airways are building a parallel facility in Auckland to give redundancy.


1103 posts

Uber Geek


  #2327252 30-Sep-2019 18:46
7 people support this post
Send private message

In fairness, Christchurch wasn't known for devistating earthquakes until recently.

 

Spark's mobile network falling over due to lack of redundancy, Auckland trains controlled from Wellington, a single oil pipeline. Seems we never learn.

 

Clearly the answer is cramming yet more people to our cities, pushing our aging and woefully inadequate infrastructure to failure.


 
 
 
 




Lock him up!
11394 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2327255 30-Sep-2019 18:50
6 people support this post
Send private message

It just seems pretty obvious to me that you would want more than a single point of failure for something as major as all the country's air transport.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


19080 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2327256 30-Sep-2019 18:52
Send private message

Rikkitic:

 

It just seems pretty obvious to me that you would want more than a single point of failure for something as major as all the country's air transport.

 

 

 

 

You would think so. 


127 posts

Master Geek


  #2327301 30-Sep-2019 20:41
Send private message

Airways have ADS-B and multilateration available for tracking aircraft also. It's not like aircraft just drop out of the sky when ATC stops working, as evidenced by the large number of uncontrolled airports we have in NZ.




Lock him up!
11394 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2327302 30-Sep-2019 20:45
Send private message

That may well be so, and as I said, I have no particular knowledge of this, but the news item today said all domestic traffic was halted while the problem was fixed, and planes did drop out of the sky (according to the item) because some of them  were directed to land at the nearest available airport!

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


3466 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2327307 30-Sep-2019 20:59
Send private message

There used to be radar centres in Auckland, Ohakea and Christchurch. Several years ago Airways in their wisdom decided to centralise the whole operation to Christchurch despite concerns being raised about the wisdom of doing this.

 

Since the Christchurch quakes Airways have decided that it might be a good idea to have some redundancy and are going to open a centre in Auckland.

 

ADSB and multilateration are just a replacement for the the old tech spinning SSR radar heads that will be decommissioned. The controllers still sit in the same room looking at the same or similar screens as they do now. A fire alarm going off will have the same effect ADSB or no ADSB.

 

Aircraft do not fall out if the sky because the radar stops working. However the number of aircraft that can be handled in the airspace covered by the radar network will decrease. Therefore the ability to handle the normal number of arrivals into the airspace around busy airports like Auckland Wellington and Christchurch reduces. This means diverting en-route aircraft to regional airports to reduce number of aircraft arriving at the busier airports.

 

Naturally while the capacity is severely impacted it doesn't make sense for aircraft be allowed to depart.

 

There has been other occasions in the past where similar events have occurred.





Sony Xperia X running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS 
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Nokia N1
Dell Inspiron 14z i5


 
 
 
 


14662 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Subscriber

  #2327342 30-Sep-2019 22:00
5 people support this post
Send private message

We could have multiple levels of redundancy on all sorts of systems but we are a small market place and given that how much are people willing to pay for it.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


655 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2327395 1-Oct-2019 08:06
13 people support this post
Send private message

In my experience, the same people who say “surely it’s obvious ...” or “we never learn ...” are the same people who say “why should I have to pay ...”.





BlinkyBill


3466 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2327482 1-Oct-2019 10:16
Send private message

MikeB4:

 

We could have multiple levels of redundancy on all sorts of systems but we are a small market place and given that how much are people willing to pay for it.

 

 

Yes, true we are a small market. However we are talking about what is critical infrastructure. Had you considered what the outcome would have been if it had been a real fire that knocked out the ATC centre in Christchurch rather than just the false alarm it was yesterday? Air traffic in New Zealand would have likely have been severely impacted for a prolonged period.

 

There is history with Airways NZ regarding fires in control centres. While it was still operating there was a fire at the Ohakea centre. The disruption was almost unnoticed as air traffic control services for the area covered by Ohakea were able to be transferred to Christchurch until the centre was repaired. 





Sony Xperia X running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS 
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Nokia N1
Dell Inspiron 14z i5


14662 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Subscriber

  #2327486 1-Oct-2019 10:21
Send private message

Technofreak:

 

MikeB4:

 

We could have multiple levels of redundancy on all sorts of systems but we are a small market place and given that how much are people willing to pay for it.

 

 

Yes, true we are a small market. However we are talking about what is critical infrastructure. Had you considered what the outcome would have been if it had been a real fire that knocked out the ATC centre in Christchurch rather than just the false alarm it was yesterday? Air traffic in New Zealand would have likely have been severely impacted for a prolonged period.

 

There is history with Airways NZ regarding fires in control centres. While it was still operating there was a fire at the Ohakea centre. The disruption was almost unnoticed as air traffic control services for the area covered by Ohakea were able to be transferred to Christchurch until the centre was repaired. 

 

 

yes I did consider this. So, would you be willing to pay a surcharge on air travel to fund redundancy?





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


1103 posts

Uber Geek


  #2327504 1-Oct-2019 10:35
4 people support this post
Send private message

MikeB4:

 

So, would you be willing to pay a surcharge on air travel to fund redundancy?

 

 

Or, you could ask why we have lost redundancy we previously had?

 

You can bet when the centralised system was introduced, costs didn't go down.


3466 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2327528 1-Oct-2019 10:46
2 people support this post
Send private message

SirHumphreyAppleby:

 

MikeB4:

 

So, would you be willing to pay a surcharge on air travel to fund redundancy?

 

 

Or, you could ask why we have lost redundancy we previously had?

 

You can bet when the centralised system was introduced, costs didn't go down.

 

 

This  ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

 

 





Sony Xperia X running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS 
Samsung Galaxy Tab S3
Nokia N1
Dell Inspiron 14z i5


14662 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Subscriber

  #2327532 1-Oct-2019 10:52
One person supports this post
Send private message

SirHumphreyAppleby:

 

MikeB4:

 

So, would you be willing to pay a surcharge on air travel to fund redundancy?

 

 

Or, you could ask why we have lost redundancy we previously had?

 

You can bet when the centralised system was introduced, costs didn't go down.

 

 

That only addresses the historical it does not address the future.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


3119 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #2327534 1-Oct-2019 10:54
Send private message

Technofreak:

 

Aircraft do not fall out if the sky because the radar stops working.

 

 

This isn't about radar not working... it's about ATC not working. Whilst aircraft won't fall out of the sky, the function of ATC is to ensure separation of aircraft in controlled airspace; i.e. to prevent midair collisions, in which case they *will* fall out of the sky.

 

 

This means diverting en-route aircraft to regional airports to reduce number of aircraft arriving at the busier airports.

 

 

Any kind of diversion is not possible unless ATC is there to command it, and to control the traffic to and arrivals at the regional airport. So diverting aircraft to another airport isn't going to help... in fact, it probably means that several large aircraft are sent to a common point, and what's more a point where there are probably aircraft that aren't ADSB-equipped.

 

Without ADSB and therefore TCAS, which allows the pilots to know where other ADSB-equipped aircraft are, loss of ATC is potentially catastrophic. At the point of ATC failure, two aircraft may be moving towards a collision, and neither may be able to see the other in time to avoid it. The best thing that could be done would be to command all aircraft to orbit exactly where they are.

 

 


 1 | 2
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Withings launches three new devices to help monitor heart health from home
Posted 13-Feb-2020 20:05


Auckland start-up Yourcar matches new car buyers with dealerships
Posted 13-Feb-2020 18:05


School gardens go high tech to teach kids the importance of technology
Posted 13-Feb-2020 11:10


Malwarebytes finds Mac threats outpace Windows for the first time
Posted 13-Feb-2020 08:01


Amazon launches Echo Show 8 in Australia and New Zealand
Posted 8-Feb-2020 20:36


Vodafone New Zealand starts two year partnership with LetsPlay.Live
Posted 28-Jan-2020 11:24


Ring launches indoor-only security camera
Posted 23-Jan-2020 17:26


New report findings will help schools implement the digital technologies curriculum content
Posted 23-Jan-2020 17:25


N4L to upgrade & support wireless internet inside schools
Posted 23-Jan-2020 17:22


Netflix releases 21 Studio Ghibli works
Posted 22-Jan-2020 11:42


Vodafone integrates eSIM into device and wearable roadmap
Posted 17-Jan-2020 09:45


Do you need this camera app? Group investigates privacy implications
Posted 16-Jan-2020 03:30


JBL launches headphones range designed for gaming
Posted 13-Jan-2020 09:59


Withings introduces ScanWatch wearable combining ECG and sleep apnea detection
Posted 9-Jan-2020 18:34


NZ Police releases public app
Posted 8-Jan-2020 11:43



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.