Why is there no virtual card Snapper?

Forums › Travel (planes, train, cruise) › Why is there no virtual card Snapper?

xlinknz

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#293328 13-Jan-2022 19:34

I purchased a Snapper card today for the first time so I could use on the Johnsonville Wellington line...

After I made that $12 purchase (not $10 as the RRP indicates) at a convenience store I wondered

If Metlink want to encourage people to use and stop buying cardboard and paper tickets why not provide the blank cards free or less than the $10 cost (a mobile SIM is often $5)
Why don't they have a cardless option e.g. virtual card on mobile as is done with credit/debit cards and soon eSIMs? (or is the snap on/off infrastructure not modern enough)?

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#2850281 13-Jan-2022 19:37

Snapper on your mobile used to exist, it was called Semble and offered by 2degrees with a special Sim Card

If your phone has a NFC chip, download the Snapper app and use your phone to top up the card so you don't get the surcharge

xlinknz

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#2850289 13-Jan-2022 20:06

DjShadow:

Snapper on your mobile used to exist, it was called Semble and offered by 2degrees with a special Sim Card

If your phone has a NFC chip, download the Snapper app and use your phone to top up the card so you don't get the surcharge

Thank you for the reply.

Yes I'll use the app (esp. to avoid fees and can top up etc) but why don't they have a convenient no physical card option so no (over priced) Snapper card or SIM

Linux

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#2850290 13-Jan-2022 20:10

It was offered by VodafoneNZ not sure about 2degrees

DjShadow

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#2850292 13-Jan-2022 20:15

Linux: It was offered by VodafoneNZ not sure about 2degrees

Wasn't Vodafone, here is a very old Press Release about it: https://services.snapper.co.nz/snapper-and-semble-partnership-2/

michaelmurfy

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#2850295 13-Jan-2022 20:25

Linux: It was offered by VodafoneNZ not sure about 2degrees

You’re both wrong. It was a joint venture between the 3 providers, Paymark and 2 banks. So was available on all providers but if memory serves me right only on specific supported android phones.

There was also another offering via 2degrees when they had a “Tap2Pay” app on specific supported phones.

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boosacnoodle

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#2850296 13-Jan-2022 20:30

If you are referring to "Express Mode" travel passes, like with cards in Japan or Los Angeles then yes you are most probably right in that the technology is too old or that they don't want to make the investment required.

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#2850298 13-Jan-2022 20:44

You also need an iPhone 7/iOS 13 and above to be able top up online. Older IPhone bad luck.

freitasm

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#2850304 13-Jan-2022 21:03

michaelmurfy:

Linux: It was offered by VodafoneNZ not sure about 2degrees

You’re both wrong. It was a joint venture between the 3 providers, Paymark and 2 banks. So was available on all providers but if memory serves me right only on specific supported android phones.

There was also another offering via 2degrees when they had a “Tap2Pay” app on specific supported phones.

You are all (almost) right.

It started with 2degrees offering a special SIM card and a modified LG Android device - the package was called Touch2Pay. This was back in 2012 and here is the FAQ.

Then in 2015, Semble comes to the scene. As @michaelmurfy points out its a joint venture between all three operators, Paymark and two banks. The problem is that the "secret" is stored in the SIM card and this technology was going to be replaced with on-device payment solutions - think using Google Pay or Apple Pay to tap and go, like you can use your credit card in Sydney trains.

Semble required a special API that was deployed only on certain device models. It didn't work well as not all phones supported it.

Obviously Semble was retired because of that idea - but the replacement never happened... So back to physical cards we are.

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wellygary

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#2850306 13-Jan-2022 21:14

Because Snapper is essentially a legacy product...

Everyone is now waiting for the result of the Government's "next great thing" Project NEXT.... the National Ticketing Solution,

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/walking-cycling-and-public-transport/public-transport/national-ticketing-solution/

However as with all boondoggles its running hideously late, likely hugely over budget and as a result it has paralysed any significant spending in that space until the Vendor is selected and the technology path is clear...

(but it is promised to be a token based system as opposed to the current stored value cards.. Snapper are bidding, along with I suspect the regular international suspects,)

insane

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#2850308 13-Jan-2022 21:31

National Ticketing Solution you say... Well I've received tickets in both islands so I guess some aspects are working 😂

jonherries

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#2850368 14-Jan-2022 07:33

Interesting analysis on that page on the Waka Kotahi website. I feel like they are conflating two things:

The device and the method.

I think they should be separating out whether they will store a balance or not (ie. Do you have an account or does it just do a transaction with your bank) from the method - card/phone

My opinion is that they should manage a stored balance and they should offer a card and phone option. I think there are too many people that either dont have a bank account (eg. kids cant before 12?) or are a bit paranoid about privacy and see an stored balance account as being more anonymous.

Most interesting thing was the lack of preference change when shown the proposed solution.

It seems to be a very slow procurement which can indicate a poor set of requirements (or disagreement over these) or a lack of ready investment in the new solution.

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PolicyGuy

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#2850413 14-Jan-2022 08:59

As I understand it, the lack of a National Ticketing System - after years and years of what looks like fruitless dithering - is largely yet another unintended consequence of the Public Transport Operating Model (PTOM) introduced by the last National government. IIRC, another Stephen Joyce triumph.

Because of the PTOM, almost all public transport services are actually operated by private companies ("providers") on fairly long-term contracts to the relevant Regional Councils, or AT in the case of Auckland. Most of these providers are in turn wholly-owned subsidiaries of large public companies, often overseas owned. One of these large pubic companies (Infratil) also owns Snapper.

So in order to introduce a National Ticketing System, Waka Kotahi has to persuade a bunch of Regional Councils to re-negotiate contracts with a number of pretty hard-nosed big commercial providers. The Regional Councils & AT ("purchasers") need to induce the providers to make changes to their contracts which will: have no discernible benefit to the providers (only to the passengers); cost them money to implement; and will provide the purchasers & Waka Kotahi with much improved visibility into the providers' activities on a near real time level. Oh, and either require one major provider to abandon a long-used and pretty successful electronic ticketing system, or require most providers to adopt a competitor's technology. Or both.

Herding cats, much?

wellygary

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#2850422 14-Jan-2022 09:20

PolicyGuy:

Most of these providers are in turn wholly-owned subsidiaries of large public companies, often overseas owned. One of these large pubic companies (Infratil) also owns Snapper.

Not any more,

Infratil sold NZ Bus to Ozzy company Next capital in 2019

https://infratil.com/for-investors/announcements/2019/completion-of-sale-of-nz-bus-to-next-capital/

They also got out of Snapper at the same time

https://infratil.com/for-investors/announcements/2019/infratil-announces-sale-of-snapper-services/

roobarb

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#2850541 14-Jan-2022 10:07

Once a Semble SIM ( 2D, VF, Spark ) was provisioned with the applet over-the-air in a supported phone, it could actually be used in any phone including Blackberry and Windows phones. The two interfaces required were single-wire-protocol for the NFC side of things and an equivalent of the OpenMobile API for the app to talk to the applet on the SIM.

xlinknz

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#2850656 14-Jan-2022 11:56

Thank you all for the replies

It is stated that the National Ticketing Solution is expected in Wgtn late 22 (that is this year!) or early 23 but I found a stuff article that said those dates were implementation dates from a Roadmap...add NZTA/Waka Kotahi have it seems have a poor record on delivery of projects esp. ICT ones so I don't put any faith in those dates.

This recent stuff article says Snapper being piloted on the Wellington metro trains (my line) is in preparation for the National Ticketing solution but that doesn't make sense if NEXT is supposed to be token/card less, so why would the old school Snapper physical card system be a pilot if a) it would need to be replaced with a token/card less capable system or a different provider (unless the snapon/off stations deployed are already capable of supporting token based apps b) NEXT comes within 12 months?

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