Air NZ: NZ1 - New York to Auckland.

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Scott3

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#300572 19-Sep-2022 14:03

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/300691561/luggage-fails-to-arrive-on-air-new-zealands-first-flight-from-new-york-to-auckland

Not a great start. Adverse weather required extra full to be carried, meaning there wasn't enough payload for all the bags.

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1477 posts

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#2970123 19-Sep-2022 14:21

I have been wondering for a while, fighter jets can refuel in mid air, why not passenger jets?

A refueling jet could take off and top them up so they could fly further or take off with more weight.

I dont know the exact route the flight would take but someware over the Pacific would be ideal.

I know enough to be dangerous

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wellygary

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#2970126 19-Sep-2022 14:23

The return trip was always going to stretch the planning more than the AKL-NYC direction,

I'm guessing its gonna take a few weeks for them to get enough data so they can balance the tickets sold and the pax capacity a bit better..

If they really wanted to push it to get the max cargo loading on the southern leg they could weight all the passengers as they board ... but they wont...

Oblivian

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#2970134 19-Sep-2022 14:42

It's original QF2 all over again :) (it use to drop a heap for the return trip from DFW)

One of the captains suggested they would need to actively work with ticketing agents to dynamically cancel/adjust booking capabilities based on demand guesswork

Would like to think that was you had standby options to open up if light on it rather than just be bumped cause no gas!

davidcole

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#2970140 19-Sep-2022 15:01

SATTV:

I have been wondering for a while, fighter jets can refuel in mid air, why not passenger jets?

A refueling jet could take off and top them up so they could fly further or take off with more weight.

I dont know the exact route the flight would take but someware over the Pacific would be ideal.

I guess do we really need to be in the ait > 18 hours?

Either work out hypersonic/ballistic flights or done try and fly so far.

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Tinkerisk

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#2970141 19-Sep-2022 15:02

SATTV:

I have been wondering for a while, fighter jets can refuel in mid air, why not passenger jets?

How much extra are you prepared to pay? A tanker base like this in the middle of the Pacific has to be supplied with the fuel that tourist bombers need compared to a few fighter tin cans.

And what do you do during bumpy winds/storms when air refuelling is not possible? Fly on with an empty tank and the friendly, painted-smiling crew then distributes parachutes (extra weight?) to the passengers so as not to worry them?

“Dear passengers. This is an announcement from your captain. Due to inhospitable conditions, the flight unfortunately cannot continue as planned. I would therefore ask you to put on the parachutes that have been distributed, strap them down well and I will inform you when I am down at FL100, blow the cabin doors away and the crew will assist you in disembarking at my lowest speed of ~230km/h. Mind the elevator. Good luck on landing and thank you for choosing this airline for your flight.“

But the real reasons are aviation requirements (alternate and final reserve fuel = reserve fuel) ;-)

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Scott3

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#2970167 19-Sep-2022 15:53

Wonder how much fat is in the plane / crew schedules?

An unscheduled fuel stop would seem preferable to leaving a decent chunk of the passengers luggage behind.

Pretty sure this has happened on a flight I was on. PAL Auckland to Manila via Cairns (unscheduled operational stop in Davao). Old plane, completly full due to date of travel. Economy heavy 2 class layout etc.

frankv

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#2970181 19-Sep-2022 16:07

Tinkerisk:

SATTV:

I have been wondering for a while, fighter jets can refuel in mid air, why not passenger jets?

How much extra are you prepared to pay? A tanker base like this in the middle of the Pacific has to be supplied with the fuel that tourist bombers need compared to a few fighter tin cans.

Conceivably, it could save money, since a plane could take off with a light fuel load, hence more passengers & luggage, then gas up once airborne. The tanker base would need to be supplied, but then NZ wouldn't need so much, so it's probably cheaper than bringing it all the way to NZ, only for it fly back again. However, I suspect it wouldn't save money, since you would need two (or three or four) aircraft flying to transport one load of passengers.

I think the real problem is two aircraft flying *very* close to each other... the training required for the crew to avoid collisions would be next level.

[quoted]

And what do you do during bumpy winds/storms when air refuelling is not possible?

[/quoted]

You refuel in the still air above the storms. At mid-latitudes, the stratosphere starts at around 33,000 ft. Storms and bumps and so on are largely in the troposphere, where air temperature decreases with altitude, and the air is therefore somewhat unstable.

You don't need to wait until the tanks are nearly empty to refuel... refuel when your fuel level decreases close to the minimum amount (plus a reserve) needed to get to an airport. Hawaii isn't that far off the AKL-NY track, so you would take off with enough fuel to get to Hawaii safely, then refuel before you got there with enough to get to SFO, then enough to get to NY. The tankers could then be based at Hawaii and SFO.

Oblivian

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#2970238 19-Sep-2022 16:30

Re fuel stops... Not uncommon for aus bound Qantas ex Queenstown to climb out light and stop here in chc for gas. Shorter runway and mountains etc add up when you're running to limits.

panther2

313 posts

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#2970239 19-Sep-2022 16:31

The FAA stipulates minimum amount of fuel allowed to be carried so rather moot point in thinking any less

Tinkerisk

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#2970240 19-Sep-2022 16:33

frankv:

You refuel in the still air above the storms. At mid-latitudes, the stratosphere starts at around 33,000 ft. Storms and bumps and so on are largely in the troposphere, where air temperature decreases with altitude, and the air is therefore somewhat unstable.

Negative. You are above the weather, but not above clear air turbulences in (23000-40000ft) commonly but wrongly described as „air holes“. So at FL300 you are exactly in that range.

networkn

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#2970245 19-Sep-2022 16:43

Tinkerisk:

SATTV:

I have been wondering for a while, fighter jets can refuel in mid air, why not passenger jets?

How much extra are you prepared to pay? A tanker base like this in the middle of the Pacific has to be supplied with the fuel that tourist bombers need compared to a few fighter tin cans.

And what do you do during bumpy winds/storms when air refuelling is not possible? Fly on with an empty tank and the friendly, painted-smiling crew then distributes parachutes (extra weight?) to the passengers so as not to worry them?

“Dear passengers. This is an announcement from your captain. Due to inhospitable conditions, the flight unfortunately cannot continue as planned. I would therefore ask you to put on the parachutes that have been distributed, strap them down well and I will inform you when I am down at FL100, blow the cabin doors away and the crew will assist you in disembarking at my lowest speed of ~230km/h. Mind the elevator. Good luck on landing and thank you for choosing this airline for your flight.“

But the real reasons are aviation requirements (alternate and final reserve fuel = reserve fuel) ;-)

This made me laugh out loud. Thanks!

frankv

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#2970250 19-Sep-2022 16:51

Tinkerisk:

frankv:

You refuel in the still air above the storms. At mid-latitudes, the stratosphere starts at around 33,000 ft. Storms and bumps and so on are largely in the troposphere, where air temperature decreases with altitude, and the air is therefore somewhat unstable.

Negative. You are above the weather, but not above clear air turbulences in (23000-40000ft) commonly but wrongly described as „air holes“. So at FL300 you are exactly in that range.

I did say largely. There is certainly CAT in the stratosphere, but it's relatively infrequent (mostly the edges of the jetstreams) compared to "bumpy winds/storms" in the troposphere. Yes, FL300 is in that range. But airliners, especially if they're light, are closer to FL400 (Yes, still just in that range). e.g. 787 ceiling is FL430 (admittedly, probably at near empty weight).

Tinkerisk

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#2970251 19-Sep-2022 16:54

networkn:

This made me laugh out loud. Thanks!

There's nothing like a few pithy announcements to cheer up your passengers at any time. ;-)

Tinkerisk

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#2970255 19-Sep-2022 16:59

frankv:

I did say largely. There is certainly CAT in the stratosphere, but it's relatively infrequent (mostly the edges of the jetstreams) compared to "bumpy winds/storms" in the troposphere. Yes, FL300 is in that range. But airliners, especially if they're light, are closer to FL400 (Yes, still just in that range). e.g. 787 ceiling is FL430 (admittedly, probably at near empty weight).

Are you a technically interested passenger or pilot? As the latter, I can only say that the theory is quite nice, but not much use if the circumstances in practice do not have to be designed for special cases, but generically. If you are a pilot as well, I have to talk to you as an former aircraft test engineer. In practice, by the way, air refuelling takes place around 10000ft (max. 25000ft) in good weather conditions. ;-)

Scott3

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#2970259 19-Sep-2022 17:03

One stuff comment claims to have a fairly reliable source that the return flight will be stopping in Tahiti for fuel.

An option, but would mean carrying fuel to get to an alternate airport over 1000km away (Raro is 1157km, but runway is much shorter at 2328m.)

I think that making a (unscheduled) stop on the return leg (only when passenger loads are high) is probably one of the better outcomes for this route, if weight is an ongoing issue. Really it's that, sell less tickets or buy/lease a longer range plane (777-200LR / 777-8 / A340-500 / A350-900ULR).

On the other hand QANTAS has also announced the same route on the 787 Dream-liner, so perhaps this will be a very rare event.

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