Our new coalition government.

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5897 posts

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#2332680 8-Oct-2019 14:50

tdgeek:

Oh dear. Yes health is seriously flawed., It was overflowing woth cash in 2017 right? Now its seriosuly flawed.

Short memories

Two years ago. The 2017 election was over two years ago. How many terms do we give them of running these sorts of surpluses and failing to enact the reform they campaign on before we can apply some basic level of scrutiny?

Mahon

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Ultimate Geek

#2332682 8-Oct-2019 14:54

I just want them to do what they promised or give tax cuts back to those who helped generate the surplus.

tdgeek

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#2332683 8-Oct-2019 14:55

GV27:

tdgeek:

Oh dear. Yes health is seriously flawed., It was overflowing woth cash in 2017 right? Now its seriosuly flawed.

Short memories

Two years ago. The 2017 election was over two years ago. How many terms do we give them of running these sorts of surpluses and failing to enact the reform they campaign on before we can apply some basic level of scrutiny?

We could try 3 terms? So far .6 in Not sure we are ok with no action in 3 terms then a mess to fix, now we are .6 in and its not all fixed.

GV27

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#2332723 8-Oct-2019 15:00

tdgeek:

GV27:

tdgeek:

Oh dear. Yes health is seriously flawed., It was overflowing woth cash in 2017 right? Now its seriosuly flawed.

Short memories

Two years ago. The 2017 election was over two years ago. How many terms do we give them of running these sorts of surpluses and failing to enact the reform they campaign on before we can apply some basic level of scrutiny?

We could try 3 terms? So far .6 in Not sure we are ok with no action in 3 terms then a mess to fix, now we are .6 in and its not all fixed.

2017 was "Let's do this".

2020 might as well be "Let's do all the stuff we said we'd do in 2017 but didn't".

There's a difference between "it's not all fixed" and "half of what we promised was made up garbage with little chance of panning out and we'll back away from the other half of what we promised and act like we're God's gift to fiscal prudence when we spend almost nothing as a result".

But let's not criticise them for not even meeting their own standards for another six years because.....John Key.

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#2332727 8-Oct-2019 15:10

spend almost nothing? ok

We had 3 terms, 9 years of surpluses, financial stewardship. And while you cant blame National for everything, they treaded water for a good while. If this current Govt does the same in 9 years then fair play. If this result was poor due to the daily reported global financial issues, trade wars, etc, then you would blame the govt for that. How long does it take to fix transport? 6 months , so a fail. I could ramble on with similar silly statements but thats your expectations. Always an excuse for the past, and now its not only no excuses. its instant fixes

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#2332744 8-Oct-2019 15:14

They have stuffed up with KB, but running the show isnt just about that failed policy. The economy is doing well, thats a good result for all of us. Or is it? No it seems

MikeB4

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#2332748 8-Oct-2019 15:21

tdgeek:

They have stuffed up with KB, but running the show isnt just about that failed policy. The economy is doing well, thats a good result for all of us. Or is it? No it seems

I am not sure that the economy is doing that well. There are a lot of business failures and a drive around any city will reveal many shuttered businesses. The Growth rate is less than a percentage point above recession. Business confidence is very low and that will soon translate into job loses. It is my opinion that the current fiscal returns for the government have been achieved by good luck than good management.

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#2332752 8-Oct-2019 15:25

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

They have stuffed up with KB, but running the show isnt just about that failed policy. The economy is doing well, thats a good result for all of us. Or is it? No it seems

I am not sure that the economy is doing that well. There are a lot of business failures and a drive around any city will reveal many shuttered businesses. The Growth rate is less than a percentage point above recession. Business confidence is very low and that will soon translate into job loses. It is my opinion that the current fiscal returns for the government have been achieved by good luck than good management.

Ok, there you go, the actuals that did occur are meaningless and inaccurate. My goodness, its toxic here today. I can see why

GV27

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#2332757 8-Oct-2019 15:31

tdgeek:

spend almost nothing? ok

We had 3 terms, 9 years of surpluses, financial stewardship. And while you cant blame National for everything, they treaded water for a good while. If this current Govt does the same in 9 years then fair play. If this result was poor due to the daily reported global financial issues, trade wars, etc, then you would blame the govt for that. How long does it take to fix transport? 6 months , so a fail. I could ramble on with similar silly statements but thats your expectations. Always an excuse for the past, and now its not only no excuses. its instant fixes

I was similarly infuriated by National's refusal to spend on anything meaningful either. Labour decried it as lazy and failing to seize the day, and then did exactly the same thing. Labour is trying to have this one both ways - they hated this 'coast' approach in opposition. Once in office, they've basically done the same thing.

As far as 'fixing transport' goes - they literally decided to take the money they were going to spend on light rail and spend it on other stuff in other places. That's not "it's going to take a bit of time to fix", it's "you're just not getting it". It takes even longer to fix if you decide you aren't going to spend the money you said you would. Why am I meant to cut Labour slack for this? It's the same pigheadedness that saw Waterview built without provisions for rapid transit in the first place. But I'm meant to look the other way when it's Labour doing it?

MikeB4

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#2332762 8-Oct-2019 15:38

tdgeek:

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

They have stuffed up with KB, but running the show isnt just about that failed policy. The economy is doing well, thats a good result for all of us. Or is it? No it seems

I am not sure that the economy is doing that well. There are a lot of business failures and a drive around any city will reveal many shuttered businesses. The Growth rate is less than a percentage point above recession. Business confidence is very low and that will soon translate into job loses. It is my opinion that the current fiscal returns for the government have been achieved by good luck than good management.

Ok, there you go, the actuals that did occur are meaningless and inaccurate. My goodness, its toxic here today. I can see why

I am not being toxic. Every week we read of yet more business failures. The current growth rate is >0.9%. The current survey of businesses shows business confidence is at a very low level. Primary industry returns are declining.

Mahon

473 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2332824 8-Oct-2019 16:09

GV27:

tdgeek:

spend almost nothing? ok

We had 3 terms, 9 years of surpluses, financial stewardship. And while you cant blame National for everything, they treaded water for a good while. If this current Govt does the same in 9 years then fair play. If this result was poor due to the daily reported global financial issues, trade wars, etc, then you would blame the govt for that. How long does it take to fix transport? 6 months , so a fail. I could ramble on with similar silly statements but thats your expectations. Always an excuse for the past, and now its not only no excuses. its instant fixes

I was similarly infuriated by National's refusal to spend on anything meaningful either. Labour decried it as lazy and failing to seize the day, and then did exactly the same thing. Labour is trying to have this one both ways - they hated this 'coast' approach in opposition. Once in office, they've basically done the same thing.

As far as 'fixing transport' goes - they literally decided to take the money they were going to spend on light rail and spend it on other stuff in other places. That's not "it's going to take a bit of time to fix", it's "you're just not getting it". It takes even longer to fix if you decide you aren't going to spend the money you said you would. Why am I meant to cut Labour slack for this? It's the same pigheadedness that saw Waterview built without provisions for rapid transit in the first place. But I'm meant to look the other way when it's Labour doing it?

I realise that this thread is about our current government. National didnt spend socially and they regret that. But they spent huge on 2 catastrophic earthquakes. They built new roads eg Kaikoura to Picton, Transmission gully, 4 laning SH1, plus many more and we got through the GFC without obvious hurt to the people. This government cancelled most of the infrastructure spending and kept the money in the bank. Weird when credible economists have been telling them to spend more for the sake of the economy for the last year at least. The effect of keeping the money in the bank and just dishing it out on a whim is to slow the economy as we are seeing now.

tdgeek

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#2332830 8-Oct-2019 16:18

GV27:

tdgeek:

spend almost nothing? ok

We had 3 terms, 9 years of surpluses, financial stewardship. And while you cant blame National for everything, they treaded water for a good while. If this current Govt does the same in 9 years then fair play. If this result was poor due to the daily reported global financial issues, trade wars, etc, then you would blame the govt for that. How long does it take to fix transport? 6 months , so a fail. I could ramble on with similar silly statements but thats your expectations. Always an excuse for the past, and now its not only no excuses. its instant fixes

I was similarly infuriated by National's refusal to spend on anything meaningful either. Labour decried it as lazy and failing to seize the day, and then did exactly the same thing. Labour is trying to have this one both ways - they hated this 'coast' approach in opposition. Once in office, they've basically done the same thing.

As far as 'fixing transport' goes - they literally decided to take the money they were going to spend on light rail and spend it on other stuff in other places. That's not "it's going to take a bit of time to fix", it's "you're just not getting it". It takes even longer to fix if you decide you aren't going to spend the money you said you would. Why am I meant to cut Labour slack for this? It's the same pigheadedness that saw Waterview built without provisions for rapid transit in the first place. But I'm meant to look the other way when it's Labour doing it?

Your comparing 9 years with 2. I thought the LR and the rest which AFAIK are bundled with a long term plan are part of a plan that you mentioned a while back hasn't been finalised yet? It still hasn't. Nats were on and off LR, it seems to me no one knows the best plan, and isnt this Govt and NZTA and AC? Yes NZTA is govt but at arms length.

tdgeek

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#2332832 8-Oct-2019 16:23

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

They have stuffed up with KB, but running the show isnt just about that failed policy. The economy is doing well, thats a good result for all of us. Or is it? No it seems

I am not sure that the economy is doing that well. There are a lot of business failures and a drive around any city will reveal many shuttered businesses. The Growth rate is less than a percentage point above recession. Business confidence is very low and that will soon translate into job loses. It is my opinion that the current fiscal returns for the government have been achieved by good luck than good management.

Ok, there you go, the actuals that did occur are meaningless and inaccurate. My goodness, its toxic here today. I can see why

I am not being toxic. Everyone week read of yet more business failures. The current growth rate is >0.9%. The current survey shows business confidence is at a very low level. Primary industry returns are declining.

I said here, not you. It does show that when there is bad news its great to bag them, fair enough. When there is good news its still a black mark, I guess its bad news for this that support the Opposition. It shows.

The numbers dont lie. More GST is from more sales, more production. More Income Tax is from more wages being paid. Im sorry it falls under Labours rule, so lets call that bad luck. Business confidence? False. It seems its more whinging from vocal minorities, while our businesses get stuck in and churn out more sales and take the employees and support industries along with them.

tdgeek

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#2332835 8-Oct-2019 16:36

Mahon:

I realise that this thread is about our current government. National didnt spend socially and they regret that. But they spent huge on 2 catastrophic earthquakes. They built new roads eg Kaikoura to Picton, Transmission gully, 4 laning SH1, plus many more and we got through the GFC without obvious hurt to the people. This government cancelled most of the infrastructure spending and kept the money in the bank. Weird when credible economists have been telling them to spend more for the sake of the economy for the last year at least. The effect of keeping the money in the bank and just dishing it out on a whim is to slow the economy as we are seeing now.

Do they regret that? You mean when heath is underfunded and they boost health one year and wow, look at that.In fact health that year got not a lot more it all went on a one off aged care workers catch up. Note catch up.

Yes EQ was their funded by insurance and EQC. Yes there was more. Roads, not a big hit there apart from a year before election was that tunnel? And there roads of national importance? GFC yes affected but a LOT less than most a lot less. Borrowing 60B helped. as was posted there this year.

Money in the bank? There is a budget, almost all of that gets allocated, with a little surplus left over. Dont you read the Budget? Ive yet to see one that spending was down, and surplus was through the roof. There was no last budget to reduce spending so we get a 3.9B surplus. Dishing it out on a whim? I never got any whims. Will that slow the economy? Well, again, read the article, re the economy.

Is this result due to Labours financial stewardship? Nah, not really. NZ is doing well, they have added funds back into the economy, and work towards finanicial responsibility and debt reduction, they are doing that fine. Not throwing it away which is what they usually do, and which the other side tried to get votes on. Mistakes and stuff ups, but social spending and being careful with our money. Ok so far. Fair. Acceptable. With two years experience under their belt, they have one more, to box tick.

tdgeek

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#2332954 8-Oct-2019 19:02

What gets me here is that what if National took over the books tomorrow? What changes? Nothing. NZ is a fixed income country. The vast majority of our spending occurs no matter what Govt is in power. When whoever does a budget, there is discretionary spending and a small surplus to allow for cost overruns and revenue shortfall. If you want to spend more of A you need to cut spending to B, OR borrow, OR tax more. Now we know that in this thread tax is borderline illegal. Do we want to borrow? Thats like selling the table and chairs to buy groceries.

Mike wants a tax cut as the 3.9B surplus is overtaxing. We can do that. Lets tax cut 3B. Problem is, thats 3B per year. 30B in 10 years, which if I'm not mistaken is about the AKL transport plan. I see where he is coming from but it doesnt work as the surplus is not a permanent overtax. Others here who bag the Govt, if National took ove tomorrow, what changes? You have the same income, the same spending, and the same discretionary. If you want AKL transport woes sorted in quick time where does the money come from? You can grab Shane Jones 1B but thats a one off. You can shutdown Kiwibuild (which I support) but the IIRC 3B is working capital not capital, so not much there. Labour has been quietly adding heaps of social housing builds, maybe you can do what National did last time and sell them all? Again, a one off gain.

There is no free ride. You need to choose what to underfund so you can do other stuff. That will catch up in due course, but as Ive seen thats Labours fault. The bottom line is that all of this is a numbers game, its not emotive at all, its ALL numbers. I can see that health and education are not important, they have had a catchup of sorts, so I guess they can wait another 5 years till they whinge again? Is that how we run this country?

Something has to change. We whinge, but we dont what more tax. Either A) accept more tax for a while and get things done, or B) wait as the money is not there until we can build it up. Or C) we borrow, but dont whinge when at some point we need to cut spending and pay down debt.

No free ride

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