Covid19 Different political parties views.

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#2467974 22-Apr-2020 16:36

dejadeadnz:

You're sadly wasting your time. GV27 just wants to sheet everything home to the government's choices, complexity and other balancing issues be damned and his ideas are premised on a worldview that focuses on only what's good for that individual business and not legal and moral responsibilities towards others. The fundamental point that he keeps ignoring (quite hypocritical for someone prone to supporting political factions which ceaselessly preach a hyper notion of personal responsibility) is that in choosing to get into business and potentially leaving creditors in the lurch should it fail, small business owners have both legal and moral obligations to ensure that creditors are not unreasonably exposed. This means, in practice, that some of these people should be prepared to capitalise or support their small businesses from personal resources.

Excuse me? I am criticising the frankly ridiculous statement by an MP who should know better. I praised the Minister of Finance for his response in the same post. They are in the same party.

You again, ignore the totally unprecedented nature of all revenue dropping away to Nil at three days notice. Five days beforehand, we did not even have an alert system. Are you suggesting that all businesses hoard cash reserves equivalent to two months of overheads and standing costs? Money that could be used to pay down trading finance, pay better wages or expand the business?

You also appear to not understand the wider economy had already slowed down in the lead-up to the Covid19 outbreak. Many business owners would have already have dipped into their own pockets to get through this period.

But please, continue to insist that not having months and months of cash reserves to cover zero dollars of revenue short notice during a once-in-a-lifetime event is somehow reckless trading.

You are welcome to counter me on the points I am actually making, but inventing ridiculous strawman arguments and projecting them to assume my personal political beliefs is tiresome and I won't engage further with it.

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#2467975 22-Apr-2020 16:40

I already have - feel free to keep ignoring them.

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#2467976 22-Apr-2020 16:40

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dejadeadnz

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#2467981 22-Apr-2020 16:54

GV27:

Excuse me? I am criticising the frankly ridiculous statement by an MP who should know better. I praised the Minister of Finance for his response in the same post. They are in the same party.

Your record of political partisanship is pretty obvious and searchable. Praising someone for purportedly agreeing with you isn't any great indication of objectively assessing an issue.

You again, ignore the totally unprecedented nature of all revenue dropping away to Nil at three days notice. Five days beforehand, we did not even have an alert system. Are you suggesting that all businesses hoard cash reserves equivalent to two months of overheads and standing costs? Money that could be used to pay down trading finance, pay better wages or expand the business?

Again, I didn't say that. What I am saying is that people can be legitimately expected to put personal resources/capital into their businesses, for the reasons I went into earlier. Feel free to ignore that again. And it's just selective evidence to point to the economy slowing down as some kind of universal defence against the contention that people should be expected to contribute personal resources into the business. This especially so when the NZ economy has been very strong for over a decade -- yes, of course not all small businesses have long trading history. But my underlying point is that Russell was raising legitimate and reasonable questions about whether all of the small businesses that are crying their eyes out were in fact structurally sound, appropriately capitalised, and whether their principals had the correct skillsets to run the businesses. Those aren't questions that you can (nor should) dismiss out of hand with general observations. You don't have to agree with her questions/points but they plainly were not the ridiculous nonsense that you purported them to be on equally ridiculous grounds.

Edit: grammar

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#2467990 22-Apr-2020 17:20

GV27:

Excuse me? I am criticising the frankly ridiculous statement by an MP who should know better. I praised the Minister of Finance for his response in the same post. They are in the same party.

You again, ignore the totally unprecedented nature of all revenue dropping away to Nil at three days notice. Five days beforehand, we did not even have an alert system. Are you suggesting that all businesses hoard cash reserves equivalent to two months of overheads and standing costs? Money that could be used to pay down trading finance, pay better wages or expand the business?

You also appear to not understand the wider economy had already slowed down in the lead-up to the Covid19 outbreak. Many business owners would have already have dipped into their own pockets to get through this period.

But please, continue to insist that not having months and months of cash reserves to cover zero dollars of revenue short notice during a once-in-a-lifetime event is somehow reckless trading.

You are welcome to counter me on the points I am actually making, but inventing ridiculous strawman arguments and projecting them to assume my personal political beliefs is tiresome and I won't engage further with it.

A person engaged in running a business would have to have been in the wilderness to not have known that a lockdown was coming. The example given us from abroad gave very clear indications that New Zealand will have to lockdown or endure a nightmare. A manager using foresight keeping their eyes on the news and using common sense would have been able to anticipate this and have far greater than three days notice to prepare. My wife had been in planning meetings for a few weeks in preparation for lockdown and had been working with clients to prepare them for lockdown from a comms perspective.

Any business that folded in the first week to two weeks was technically in solvent already. A manager/owner has a responsibility to staff, suppliers, creditors and customers to have plans in place to mitigate such events especially given the examples of the Christchurch earthquakes. Just as individuals we should plan to help ourselves for as long as possible so does a business.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#2467996 22-Apr-2020 17:34

MikeB4:

Any business that folded in the first week to two weeks was technically in solvent already. A manager/owner has a responsibility to staff, suppliers, creditors and customers to have plans in place to mitigate such events especially given the examples of the Christchurch earthquakes. Just as individuals we should plan to help ourselves for as long as possible so does a business.

That's incorrect. Not every business who folded immediately was insolvent (technically or otherwise). Any company that saw that a total lockdown of 4 weeks was just the start and knew they weren't going to be able to trade through what is pretty likely going to be at least 3-6 months in difficult conditions and for many 6-8 weeks of zero revenue could have closed in order limit their liability and protect themselves and all the people that provided them credit from becoming insolvent. There was potentially nothing wrong with a business that can't survive those conditions, which are likely once in a lifetime.

Plenty of thriving businesses will just simply not exist as a result of this, not because they were badly run, but simply because you can't operate a business with zero revenue. (Think Tourism etc).

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dejadeadnz

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#2468052 22-Apr-2020 19:55

networkn:

Plenty of thriving businesses will just simply not exist as a result of this, not because they were badly run, but simply because you can't operate a business with zero revenue. (Think Tourism etc).

Some businesses would have plenty of problems pivoting or frankly had nothing to (realistically) pivot to. Some were given mortal blows by this. None of what you are saying or implying here is wrong. But that's not what a certain poster here along with a bottom-feeder of a politician (i.e. David "I got in because someone gave me a seat" Seymour) was saying: they were taking broad-brushed potshots at another MP for asking questions of the preparedness of some of the small businesses and their sustainability etc.

bmt

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#2468105 22-Apr-2020 21:20

MikeB4:

GV27:

Excuse me? I am criticising the frankly ridiculous statement by an MP who should know better. I praised the Minister of Finance for his response in the same post. They are in the same party.

You again, ignore the totally unprecedented nature of all revenue dropping away to Nil at three days notice. Five days beforehand, we did not even have an alert system. Are you suggesting that all businesses hoard cash reserves equivalent to two months of overheads and standing costs? Money that could be used to pay down trading finance, pay better wages or expand the business?

You also appear to not understand the wider economy had already slowed down in the lead-up to the Covid19 outbreak. Many business owners would have already have dipped into their own pockets to get through this period.

But please, continue to insist that not having months and months of cash reserves to cover zero dollars of revenue short notice during a once-in-a-lifetime event is somehow reckless trading.

You are welcome to counter me on the points I am actually making, but inventing ridiculous strawman arguments and projecting them to assume my personal political beliefs is tiresome and I won't engage further with it.

A person engaged in running a business would have to have been in the wilderness to not have known that a lockdown was coming. The example given us from abroad gave very clear indications that New Zealand will have to lockdown or endure a nightmare. A manager using foresight keeping their eyes on the news and using common sense would have been able to anticipate this and have far greater than three days notice to prepare. My wife had been in planning meetings for a few weeks in preparation for lockdown and had been working with clients to prepare them for lockdown from a comms perspective.

I'll second this. In my work emails the first mention of coronavirus is on 11th of Feb referring to the impact it was having on a supplier. There was a company wide email setting out new policies on the 4th of March. New Zealand went into lockdown on 25/26 March.

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#2468392 23-Apr-2020 09:37

bmt:

MikeB4: A person engaged in running a business would have to have been in the wilderness to not have known that a lockdown was coming. The example given us from abroad gave very clear indications that New Zealand will have to lockdown or endure a nightmare. A manager using foresight keeping their eyes on the news and using common sense would have been able to anticipate this and have far greater than three days notice to prepare. My wife had been in planning meetings for a few weeks in preparation for lockdown and had been working with clients to prepare them for lockdown from a comms perspective.

I'll second this. In my work emails the first mention of coronavirus is on 11th of Feb referring to the impact it was having on a supplier. There was a company wide email setting out new policies on the 4th of March. New Zealand went into lockdown on 25/26 March.

And I third this. We were talking about Coronavirus back in late January/early February at my office and looking to Italy everyone should have known by then that things were going to get serious.

I also fully agree with some of the sentiment above from @networkn with companies that chose to close to limit liability as they can see the writing on the wall such as Tourism operators. But reports of tour operators using their buses and providing home delivery services for essentials seems like smart way to pivot their business.

My view is the pandemic should be no different that preparing for any other sort of unexpected disaster. If companies haven't learnt anything from Christchurch (Earthquake or Terrorist attack) then they haven't been paying attention.

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#2468429 23-Apr-2020 10:10

So a big takeaway from the events you quoted (both in Christchurch) although maybe add the Seddon and Kaikoura quakes as well, is don’t put all your eggs in one basket. But what if, through circumstance, the government says “your baskets are temporarily not available. Can’t tell you how long ‘temporarily’ is.” So now what to do with your eggs. You can only make so many omelettes.

I had a phone conversation with an old school friend, who gave the distinct ‘I’m alright Jack because I’m working from home’ vibe. He didn’t seem to get that in a couple of months it isn’t going to matter where you work from, if you don’t have paying customers, you don’t have a business.

I have already delayed indefinitely $50K worth of home improvements that were planned for this year.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#2468561 23-Apr-2020 12:37

Dingbatt:

So a big takeaway from the events you quoted (both in Christchurch) although maybe add the Seddon and Kaikoura quakes as well, is don’t put all your eggs in one basket. But what if, through circumstance, the government says “your baskets are temporarily not available. Can’t tell you how long ‘temporarily’ is.” So now what to do with your eggs. You can only make so many omelettes.

I had a phone conversation with an old school friend, who gave the distinct ‘I’m alright Jack because I’m working from home’ vibe. He didn’t seem to get that in a couple of months it isn’t going to matter where you work from, if you don’t have paying customers, you don’t have a business.

I have already delayed indefinitely $50K worth of home improvements that were planned for this year.

Not wanting to minimise the pain you and many other small businesses are experiencing and the long term impacts of that.

I am however saying ALL the alternative models are far far worse than the lockdown, as it isn't a choice between human life or the economy. You need to look at this is a choice between significant impacts to the economy as a result of the lockdown or lots of deaths that will have even more significant impacts on the economy. It isn't an either or, it is an either AND.

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#2468581 23-Apr-2020 12:51

Dingbatt:

So a big takeaway from the events you quoted (both in Christchurch) although maybe add the Seddon and Kaikoura quakes as well, is don’t put all your eggs in one basket. But what if, through circumstance, the government says “your baskets are temporarily not available. Can’t tell you how long ‘temporarily’ is.” So now what to do with your eggs. You can only make so many omelettes.

I had a phone conversation with an old school friend, who gave the distinct ‘I’m alright Jack because I’m working from home’ vibe. He didn’t seem to get that in a couple of months it isn’t going to matter where you work from, if you don’t have paying customers, you don’t have a business.

I have already delayed indefinitely $50K worth of home improvements that were planned for this year.

Once we are out of lock down for this year at least we have decided to proceed with the work we had planned for the home and a major purchase. Getting back to normal is the best thing for the economy.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#2468590 23-Apr-2020 12:59

MikeB4:

Dingbatt:

So a big takeaway from the events you quoted (both in Christchurch) although maybe add the Seddon and Kaikoura quakes as well, is don’t put all your eggs in one basket. But what if, through circumstance, the government says “your baskets are temporarily not available. Can’t tell you how long ‘temporarily’ is.” So now what to do with your eggs. You can only make so many omelettes.

I had a phone conversation with an old school friend, who gave the distinct ‘I’m alright Jack because I’m working from home’ vibe. He didn’t seem to get that in a couple of months it isn’t going to matter where you work from, if you don’t have paying customers, you don’t have a business.

I have already delayed indefinitely $50K worth of home improvements that were planned for this year.

Once we are out of lock down for this year at least we have decided to proceed with the work we had planned for the home and a major purchase. Getting back to normal is the best thing for the economy.

Same. We won't be taking our big trip, but to do our part, we will likely do some of the renovations we had considered. If people constrict their spending it's going to make things worse. Obviously, using common sense applies. If you are down to your last 10K spending 8 of it on a reno isn't sensible.

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#2469157 24-Apr-2020 12:20

I keep getting email notification for new posts on this thread, when I click the link there is nothing new.

What's going on?

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#2469164 24-Apr-2020 12:30

Technofreak:

I keep getting email notification for new posts on this thread, when I click the link there is nothing new.

What's going on?

Same, it takes me back to the start of page 16. But Networkn's post from yesterday is still the last

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