Our new coalition government.

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#2513295 26-Jun-2020 23:49

Rikkitic:

I believe Jacinda Ardern will be looked back on as an outstanding figure of the 21st century. As you say, most world leaders have responded poorly to the pandemic. A few have done much better. Jacinda Ardern certainly belongs with those few. What other leader anywhere, maybe at any time, has thought to ask her people just to be ‘kind’? No-one is requiring you to find her amazing. But I do and I am happy to say so.

You've frankly lost just about anyone with any sense of proportionality and understanding of history with the remark that Ardern will be looked back on as an outstanding figure of the 21st century. Just to prove this, look at a few examples of figures that most reasonable and objective individuals would consider as outstanding figures of the 20th century. FDR? Had the foresight to argue against American isolationism, went into the lend-lease arrangements and gave Europe other help that decisively turned the tide in WWII. Churchill? Inspired a nation to stand steadfast when all of Europe was crumbling and helped lead a declining power to make significant contributions in the defeat of Japan and Germany. Deng Xiao Ping? His policies and outlook led over a billion people out of abject poverty and turned China into the manufacturing power of the world. Ghandi? He gave concrete notion to the idea of a form of peaceful resistance and inspired many former colonies to seek independence, in addition to doing much to undermine the myth of the "kingdom". What has and what can Ardern realistically do with a insignificant and geopolitically borderline-irrelevant country like NZ to have that kind of impact? And I absolutely stand by the comment that those two lying women returning from the UK are dumb tarts. Frankly, that description is generous. Not one bit of their story remotely add up to anyone prepared to look at them critically. Being nice and all that is fine -- but wasting time and just blabbering nonsense against all weight of evidence is stupidity.

And asking people to be kind isn't leadership. Especially not when it's reasonably arguable that she's seeking to weaponise it to silence legitimate criticism. Really the brutal fact is you have a very low threshold of what constitutes great leadership. You want to be in the Ardern fan club? That's cool. It's just that this isn't a discussion about personal fan clubs.

dejadeadnz

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#2513300 27-Jun-2020 00:27

FWIW, I will in all likelihood support the Greens in some capacity (either for electorate MP or party vote). I'd previously mentioned that I was seriously thinking about voting Labour but that won't happen now after all the recent bungling and the ongoing poor nature of their policies/execution. There's no way that I will even consider voting National -- I personally have certain character tests that I apply to people who are likely to hold senior cabinet posts. The likes of Collins, Bennett, Goldsmith, Muller and Mitchell all fail badly as I consider their personal histories and character to range from despicable (e.g. Mitchell's background as a "security contractor" aka mercenary), offensive to normal person's conscience (Bennett with her history of leaking a constituent's benefit history and Collins' general attack dog politics), to generally unbearable (Muller and Goldsmith's well-known conservative views). Really most of our current MPs are startlingly mediocre.

This coalition government is day-to-day as useless as the Key and Clark governments. Its big strength over the opposition is that whilst its members are just as prone as to usual BS and lying that politicians are known for, I can at least generally say that (the NZF members excepting) their characters aren't so deformed that I would consider that the decency and ethical fibre of humanity would be significantly improved were they to cease to exist. That's not a view that I have of many of National's front bench.

Fred99

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#2513550 27-Jun-2020 09:40

SJB:

Despite the fact she has grown in to the job she is still a lightweight.

Calling her "a lightweight" is dumb.

Rikkitic

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#2513559 27-Jun-2020 10:19

dejadeadnz:

Really the brutal fact is you have a very low threshold of what constitutes great leadership.

See my comment above. Her run isn't over yet. In fact, it has barely begun. I can't see the future but I believe she has demonstrated a capacity for greatness. At some point she will leave NZ politics, whether by choice or the ballot box, and the world will then be her oyster. I can easily see her shining on the international stage. Maybe she will manage what Helen Clark could not quite do.

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#2513560 27-Jun-2020 10:23

dejadeadnz:

FWIW, I will in all likelihood support the Greens in some capacity (either for electorate MP or party vote).

We agree on this. I will also probably vote Greens, and for a similar reason. I fully agree with you about the National line-up and any vote I cast will be a vote against them more than a vote for the coalition. In spite of my admiration for JA, that does not extend to much of the rest of this government. My hope is that NZ First will get trounced, and that will unleash a new and improved cabinet to actually get something done.

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SJB

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#2513577 27-Jun-2020 11:29

Fred99:

SJB:

Despite the fact she has grown in to the job she is still a lightweight.

Calling her "a lightweight" is dumb.

Why? She's currently a big fish in a very small bowl.

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Fred99

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#2513600 27-Jun-2020 12:29

SJB:

Why? She's currently a big fish in a very small bowl.

A "lightweight" and a "big fish in a small pond"?

What are you talking about?

FWIW - and anecdote: My SO has been networking with global leaders in her field over the past few months, zoom meetings with people from all over the planet.

Every single time new people join, the same off-topic comments - huge admiration for JA and NZ. I'm sure you could find people elsewhere who don't share those views, but Jacinda Ardern is greatly admired. It doesn't matter what you (or I) think. Calling her a lightweight" is a sad, lame thing to do.

Rikkitic

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#2513602 27-Jun-2020 12:36

Fred99:

Every single time new people join, the same off-topic comments - huge admiration for JA and NZ. I'm sure you could find people elsewhere who don't share those views, but Jacinda Ardern is greatly admired. It doesn't matter what you (or I) think. Calling her a lightweight" is a sad, lame thing to do.

Thank you for making my point.

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Handle9

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#2514148 28-Jun-2020 21:02

Fred99:

SJB:

Why? She's currently a big fish in a very small bowl.

A "lightweight" and a "big fish in a small pond"?

What are you talking about?

FWIW - and anecdote: My SO has been networking with global leaders in her field over the past few months, zoom meetings with people from all over the planet.

Every single time new people join, the same off-topic comments - huge admiration for JA and NZ. I'm sure you could find people elsewhere who don't share those views, but Jacinda Ardern is greatly admired. It doesn't matter what you (or I) think. Calling her a lightweight" is a sad, lame thing to do.

I don't think lightweight is the right adjective. She has repeatedly been demonstrated to lack courage. She hasn't shown any willingness to stand up for what she believes in even if it means clashing with New Zealand First.

The treatment of unemployed migrant workers stranded in New Zealand is disgraceful as is the two tier benefit system introduced as a result of COVID19.

Ardern has the ability to be iconic but her caution and lack of steel is apparent. It's disappointing, she's got great leadership ability but hasn't demonstrated management ability.

Fred99

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#2514161 28-Jun-2020 22:02

Handle9:

I don't think lightweight is the right adjective. She has repeatedly been demonstrated to lack courage. She hasn't shown any willingness to stand up for what she believes in even if it means clashing with New Zealand First.

The treatment of unemployed migrant workers stranded in New Zealand is disgraceful as is the two tier benefit system introduced as a result of COVID19.

Ardern has the ability to be iconic but her caution and lack of steel is apparent. It's disappointing, she's got great leadership ability but hasn't demonstrated management ability.

I acknowledge the frustration, but it's not that simple (IMO).

Winston Peters is extremely wily / manipulative, and has had the better of politicians from either side. The sooner he is gone - the better. I do hope he gets a well paid job at the NZ Herald though - as an "opinion piece" writer, and for starting conspiracy theories, he'd wipe the floor of the has-been ex-celebrities they use now.

The non-resident migrant workers should be sent home ASAP. If there's a failure, then it's not having the guts to load them up on one of the many 777 and 787s parked up, fly them home, open the doors, then tell them to get off the plane. Compassion should be reserved for the pacific people etc, fruit pickers. The US/Canadian/European "refugees" that decide to stay in Queenstown had the opportunity to go home months ago. I do not want to pay them to stay. YMMV.

Handle9

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#2514162 28-Jun-2020 22:08

Fred99:

Handle9:

I don't think lightweight is the right adjective. She has repeatedly been demonstrated to lack courage. She hasn't shown any willingness to stand up for what she believes in even if it means clashing with New Zealand First.

The treatment of unemployed migrant workers stranded in New Zealand is disgraceful as is the two tier benefit system introduced as a result of COVID19.

Ardern has the ability to be iconic but her caution and lack of steel is apparent. It's disappointing, she's got great leadership ability but hasn't demonstrated management ability.

I acknowledge the frustration, but it's not that simple (IMO).

Winston Peters is extremely wily / manipulative, and has had the better of politicians from either side. The sooner he is gone - the better. I do hope he gets a well paid job at the NZ Herald though - as an "opinion piece" writer, and for starting conspiracy theories, he'd wipe the floor of the has-been ex-celebrities they use now.

The non-resident migrant workers should be sent home ASAP. If there's a failure, then it's not having the guts to load them up on one of the many 777 and 787s parked up, fly them home, open the doors, then tell them to get off the plane. Compassion should be reserved for the pacific people etc, fruit pickers. The US/Canadian/European "refugees" that decide to stay in Queenstown had the opportunity to go home months ago. I do not want to pay them to stay. YMMV.

If Ardern can't handle Peters then the hagiography is just propaganda. She's not as good as the story.

The migrant worker issue is a joke. New Zealand has lost any moral high ground to complain about the way Australia treats New Zealanders. New Zealand is behaving worse - pretending to be "kind" but treating taxpayers who are stuck in the country incredibly poorly.

It's a team of 5 million, except for those deemed unworthy. Then screw them.

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Fred99

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#2514164 28-Jun-2020 22:26

Handle9:

If Ardern can't handle Peters then the hagiography is just propaganda. She's not as good as the story.

The migrant worker issue is a joke. New Zealand has lost any moral high ground to complain about the way Australia treats New Zealanders. New Zealand is behaving worse - pretending to be "kind" but treating taxpayers who are stuck in the country incredibly poorly.

It's a team of 5 million, except for those deemed unworthy. Then screw them.

Nobody can "handle" Peters when he's needed for a confidence vote in parliament.

The situation with NZers in Aus and most of the remaining "refugees" here is not equivalent. They were told to go home, there was a huge effort by their own governments (and ours) to facilitate it, but they wanted to stay - despite all being on time-limited visas which are now expiring.

There are "some" NZers living in Aus without Aus residency, dual citizenship, or qualifying for visa exemption (moved and resident there prior to 2000?). Not defending how the Aus govt initially behaved, but practically and indefinitely resident, taxpaying, but no rights does suck. This shift started with Bob Hawke in the '80s. Quantifying it is another issue, IIRC the headline was "800k NZer's in Aus". The real figure of "trapped" is a small fraction of that. Best guess I read was 150k, many of them will still have jobs and will stay there, nobody knows (including any government) how many may end up coming home.

Propose a fair solution - because it seems like partisan whining to me. Key, Clarke etc also had a go at trying to fix the issue - but farted at thunder.

Handle9

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#2514167 28-Jun-2020 22:37

Fred99:

Handle9:

If Ardern can't handle Peters then the hagiography is just propaganda. She's not as good as the story.

The migrant worker issue is a joke. New Zealand has lost any moral high ground to complain about the way Australia treats New Zealanders. New Zealand is behaving worse - pretending to be "kind" but treating taxpayers who are stuck in the country incredibly poorly.

It's a team of 5 million, except for those deemed unworthy. Then screw them.

Nobody can "handle" Peters when he's needed for a confidence vote in parliament.

The situation with NZers in Aus and most of the remaining "refugees" here is not equivalent. They were told to go home, there was a huge effort by their own governments (and ours) to facilitate it, but they wanted to stay - despite all being on time-limited visas which are now expiring.

There are "some" NZers living in Aus without Aus residency, dual citizenship, or qualifying for visa exemption (moved and resident there prior to 2000?). Not defending how the Aus govt initially behaved, but practically and indefinitely resident, taxpaying, but no rights does suck. This shift started with Bob Hawke in the '80s. Quantifying it is another issue, IIRC the headline was "800k NZer's in Aus". The real figure of "trapped" is a small fraction of that. Best guess I read was 150k, many of them will still have jobs and will stay there, nobody knows (including any government) how many may end up coming home.

Propose a fair solution - because it seems like partisan whining to me.

Lol. What is partisan about it? Who do you think I am supporting?

You are making excuses for every failure and then claiming that anyone who calls out the failures partisan. There is a fair level of hypocrisy there.

Expecting someone to walk out their lives with a couple of weeks notice is daft. Then the flights stopped and the workers are stranded.

What is fair? Give a reasonable level of support until migrants who are stuck can be repatriated or find a new job. New Zealand Inc has been happy to take workers and as soon as it doesn't' suit it's bad luck for them. That's both immoral and disgusting.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/05/12/1168118/can-of-beans-solution-for-out-of-work-migrants

Fred99

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#2514172 28-Jun-2020 23:16

Handle9:

What is fair? Give a reasonable level of support until migrants who are stuck can be repatriated or find a new job. New Zealand Inc has been happy to take workers and as soon as it doesn't' suit it's bad luck for them. That's both immoral and disgusting.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/05/12/1168118/can-of-beans-solution-for-out-of-work-migrants

I think you'll find that many of the "migrants" on temporary work visas are relatively wealthy young people from the UK, Europe, US, Canada who were on "working holidays" and decided on their own volition and against advice of their own governments to stay. It was a choice to stay here. Some of their governments (ie Germany) did the right thing and chartered a bee-line of A380s to repatriate their citizens. That was the right thing to do.

As for the rest - send them home now if they need support. We can't afford it. We're going to have a tough time supporting our own residents / citizens in coming months,

The migrant workers on special work permits - sure - we should look after them well, but then also send them home ASAP.

There are no "cool" jobs. There's a serious problem. If they were "students" and still here, then it's utter BS that they're "trapped". The tertiary education sector is in severe strife - they'd be treated like royalty, so long as they can still pay fees. If not - then please go home.

I do not believe the article you linked to estimating numbers as 300,000. I do see freedom camping site full of young people in vans etc. (around southern lakes in the SI where I was a few days ago) they need to go home, it should have happened months ago, and ensuring that happens ASAP should be a priority.

dejadeadnz

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#2514174 28-Jun-2020 23:52

Handle9:

Lol. What is partisan about it? Who do you think I am supporting?

Honestly, just don't bother. It's obvious enough for people who can reason who are the ones spewing nonsense. Nothing you do/say will change their minds one bit.

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