Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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frankv

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#1696216 29-Dec-2016 15:53

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ajobbins:

The presidency should be chosen by the popular vote.

Why? What is so magical about the popular vote that it preempts any other way of selecting a leader?

Just because the system ended up electing Trump instead of Clinton doesn't mean the system is wrong. Not even if *you* prefer Clinton.

The Americans have chosen that system for Presidential elections. They have to live with it, or they can change it. It's pointless saying that under some other system someone else would have been elected. And especially pointless to say that because Trump was elected, there's something wrong with the electoral system.

frankv

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#1696221 29-Dec-2016 16:11

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JimsonWeed:

I appreciate all the responses - thank you, kindly. It's always good to listen to other people's opinions on matters.

With regard to a couple comments though;

As for the electoral college - I suspect that you fail to understand what it means - so here's a simple graphic:

But what's the problem with this? It is *designed* to be like that, and enshrined in the Constitution. Although "1-man 1-vote" is a fine principle, there are aspects which aren't so great; for example, legalised oppression of minorities is possible. In this case, the minorities (people living in less populous states) are being protected. Whether that protection is warranted is a Constitutional matter.

"1 man, 1 vote" is a great concept but unfortunately, people tend to cluster in cities these days. This is especially true of minorities. You don't generally find large collectives of minorities living in rural America.

I think you've misunderstood. In this case, the minority is defined by race or religion, but by geography. In the US, people who live in unpopulous states (e.g. Wyoming, Vermont) are a minority which is protected in various ways (State lawmaking rights, the same number of Senators as other States, and disproportionate power in electing Presidents). So it would be very difficult for a bunch on Californians to (for example) impose a speed limit on Wyoming.

JimsonWeed

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#1696240 29-Dec-2016 18:13

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frankv:

JimsonWeed:

I appreciate all the responses - thank you, kindly. It's always good to listen to other people's opinions on matters.

With regard to a couple comments though;

As for the electoral college - I suspect that you fail to understand what it means - so here's a simple graphic:

But what's the problem with this? It is *designed* to be like that, and enshrined in the Constitution. Although "1-man 1-vote" is a fine principle, there are aspects which aren't so great; for example, legalised oppression of minorities is possible. In this case, the minorities (people living in less populous states) are being protected. Whether that protection is warranted is a Constitutional matter.

"1 man, 1 vote" is a great concept but unfortunately, people tend to cluster in cities these days. This is especially true of minorities. You don't generally find large collectives of minorities living in rural America.

I think you've misunderstood. In this case, the minority is defined by race or religion, but by geography. In the US, people who live in unpopulous states (e.g. Wyoming, Vermont) are a minority which is protected in various ways (State lawmaking rights, the same number of Senators as other States, and disproportionate power in electing Presidents). So it would be very difficult for a bunch on Californians to (for example) impose a speed limit on Wyoming.

I will have to respectfully disagree with you. Under the concept of 1 person, 1 vote (i.e., the popular vote), population density would define the laws and the powers of the land. We can argue it back and forth but, it's a known fact and that's the very reason the electoral vote is the deciding factor. It's not really an issue that can be debated. It's a proven fact that relying solely on the popular vote, population density will rule the country.

On the matter of laws... you have city government, county government, state government, and federal government. Not all states are structured in the same way either. Likewise, federal law generally supersedes any of the other lower courts. For example, Cannabis is illegal at the federal level but, the federal government chooses to allow each state determine it's own will. These mayors who are refusing to hand over illegal aliens are not in jeopardy of any criminal prosecution but, the federal government can, and probably will, withhold funding for a myriad of social programmes. The effects of this are usually felt when the incumbent decides to run for office on the next term. Bzzzt... gone! Now... just in case you're going to rebuff my "illegal alien" comment, please bear in mind that very, very few countries will tolerate over-stays or illegal immigrants so, it's not like the US is being mean to a bunch of people wanting a better life. There is a process to achieving that goal.

Reflecting on the sparsely populated areas of Wyoming, Colorado, Montana, and places like that... some people own 1,000's and 1,000's of acres of land and would never part with it for the sake of bring more people into the area. Besides, unless you're really into freezing cold weather and limited employment opportunities, the best you would probably ever want to do is carry a sack lunch, enjoy the view, and head off some place else. :) Incidentally, the federal government can impose a national speed limit across all states with no trouble at all. President Jimmy Carter was the one who put the 55mph speed limit into effect across the nation. The very day he left office, highway workers were changing the signs to 80mph.

Great discussion though. It's good to be able to hold opposing view without ending up in the ditch in a bloody brawl :)

JimsonWeed

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#1696242 29-Dec-2016 18:16

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Why? What is so magical about the popular vote that it preempts any other way of selecting a leader?

Just because the system ended up electing Trump instead of Clinton doesn't mean the system is wrong. Not even if *you* prefer Clinton.

The Americans have chosen that system for Presidential elections. They have to live with it, or they can change it. It's pointless saying that under some other system someone else would have been elected. And especially pointless to say that because Trump was elected, there's something wrong with the electoral system.

Exactly! I just hope and pray that the US election doesn't set the standard around the globe for the way elections should be held. That was truly some sad mess we all just witnessed.

tdgeek

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#1696244 29-Dec-2016 18:27

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JimsonWeed:

Why? What is so magical about the popular vote that it preempts any other way of selecting a leader?

Just because the system ended up electing Trump instead of Clinton doesn't mean the system is wrong. Not even if *you* prefer Clinton.

The Americans have chosen that system for Presidential elections. They have to live with it, or they can change it. It's pointless saying that under some other system someone else would have been elected. And especially pointless to say that because Trump was elected, there's something wrong with the electoral system.

Exactly! I just hope and pray that the US election doesn't set the standard around the globe for the way elections should be held. That was truly some sad mess we all just witnessed.

What sad mess?

JWR

821 posts

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#1696247 29-Dec-2016 18:33

joker97:

JWR:

joker97:

Time will tell

He was who the Americans chose as their next Presdident

Can't have democracy and then not want it

Actually, they didn't.

The Electoral College chose Trump as the President.

Americans don't vote directly for president.

They only get to express a preference.

The overall preference was for Hillary (by 2-3 million).

Democracy is not kindergarten math.

Democracy - It's a process, and the process has a scoreboard attached to it.

You can't say actually the referee gave the black caps a win over the proteus, the black caps shouldn't have won because of this and that.

Black Caps, Proteus... Who cares! It isn't relevant to voting.

Mathematics is more important than any of us! The Cosmos can be described by Mathematics'

However, I don't think they teach it in kindergarten.

Democracy, I am not so sure about. I don't claim to know what it is.

It is an idealistic thing.

Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea democratic? or any number of 'dictators' elected with 97-98% of the votes ( usually in that range).

Is America democratic when their votes for President only express a preference?

tdgeek

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#1696248 29-Dec-2016 18:40

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JWR:
joker97:

JWR:

joker97:

Time will tell

He was who the Americans chose as their next Presdident

Can't have democracy and then not want it

Actually, they didn't.

The Electoral College chose Trump as the President.

Americans don't vote directly for president.

They only get to express a preference.

The overall preference was for Hillary (by 2-3 million).

Democracy is not kindergarten math.

Democracy - It's a process, and the process has a scoreboard attached to it.

You can't say actually the referee gave the black caps a win over the proteus, the black caps shouldn't have won because of this and that.

Black Caps, Proteus... Who cares! It isn't relevant to voting.

Mathematics is more important than any of us! The Cosmos can be described by Mathematics'

However, I don't think they teach it in kindergarten.

Democracy, I am not so sure about. I don't claim to know what it is.

It is an idealistic thing.

Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea democratic? or any number of 'dictators' elected with 97-98% of the votes ( usually in that range).

Is America democratic when their votes for President only express a preference?

Democracy isn't idealistic. And it's not really a preference. The end user, I.e the citizens choose a leader. That's not idealism at all. The only thing I can think of to improve democracy it to make it illegal not to vote. But if you don't have to vote and you don't, that's tough bikkies. The people have spoken, not a law or dictator, that's the difference

JWR

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#1696251 29-Dec-2016 18:50

tdgeek: Democracy isn't idealistic. And it's not really a preference. The end user, I.e the citizens choose a leader. That's not idealism at all. The only thing I can think of to improve democracy it to make it illegal not to vote. But if you don't have to vote and you don't, that's tough bikkies. The people have spoken, not a law or dictator, that's the difference

That is an idealistic reply.

JimsonWeed

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#1696252 29-Dec-2016 18:53

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tdgeek:
JimsonWeed:

Why? What is so magical about the popular vote that it preempts any other way of selecting a leader?

Just because the system ended up electing Trump instead of Clinton doesn't mean the system is wrong. Not even if *you* prefer Clinton.

The Americans have chosen that system for Presidential elections. They have to live with it, or they can change it. It's pointless saying that under some other system someone else would have been elected. And especially pointless to say that because Trump was elected, there's something wrong with the electoral system.

Exactly! I just hope and pray that the US election doesn't set the standard around the globe for the way elections should be held. That was truly some sad mess we all just witnessed.

What sad mess?

All the hate and dissension that went along with it. There was more rubbish spewed back and forth that it resembled more a schoolyard brawl than a presidential election. On a side note, read this article if you get a chance. You know a number of the big players are engaged in this kind of thing. I wonder if there was something like this behind all the turmoil during 2016.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html

tdgeek

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#1696255 29-Dec-2016 18:59

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JWR:

tdgeek:

Democracy isn't idealistic. And it's not really a preference. The end user, I.e the citizens choose a leader. That's not idealism at all. The only thing I can think of to improve democracy it to make it illegal not to vote. But if you don't have to vote and you don't, that's tough bikkies. The people have spoken, not a law or dictator, that's the difference

That is an idealistic reply.

I'll correct you. That is your opinion. If you locate a means to allow the populous to vote 100% for a new leader, we have perfection. That will never happen. At the other end is a dictator. End of the day, every few years, the populous votes

tdgeek

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#1696259 29-Dec-2016 19:03

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JimsonWeed:
tdgeek:
JimsonWeed:

Why? What is so magical about the popular vote that it preempts any other way of selecting a leader?

Just because the system ended up electing Trump instead of Clinton doesn't mean the system is wrong. Not even if *you* prefer Clinton.

The Americans have chosen that system for Presidential elections. They have to live with it, or they can change it. It's pointless saying that under some other system someone else would have been elected. And especially pointless to say that because Trump was elected, there's something wrong with the electoral system.

Exactly! I just hope and pray that the US election doesn't set the standard around the globe for the way elections should be held. That was truly some sad mess we all just witnessed.

What sad mess?

All the hate and dissension that went along with it. There was more rubbish spewed back and forth that it resembled more a schoolyard brawl than a presidential election. On a side note, read this article if you get a chance. You know a number of the big players are engaged in this kind of thing. I wonder if there was something like this behind all the turmoil during 2016.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html

I did know what you meant. But along the lines of popular vote vs electoral vote, the people decided, so it's not really a mess, it's what the US citizens wanted.

I'll read that later, cheers.

Your new here, welcome!

gzt

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#1696261 29-Dec-2016 19:07

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JimsonWeed:
I think ol' Donald is going to surprise a lot of people. Yeah, he's quite arrogant but, he's also connected to a lot of people. The US is already seeing the market economy better than it's been in the last 8 years. I just hope that trend continues. There's not doubt he will fix a lot of things but at the same time, he'll also piss off a lot of people doing it.

The thing that got me was all the "mud-slinging" that took place against the backdrop of fake news. The media made all manner of predictions and upset a large segment of the population. Actually, they did quite well in dividing the country. Honestly, I don't think there was anything that one side didn't attack the other with.

The latest fad is for people to go on and on about the popular vote but, they fail to understand what it actually means. The electoral college was established to prevent a single state (or region) from becoming the seat of power over the whole of the country. Just imagine if population density was the deciding factor in New Zealand. All one would need to do is campaign heavily in Auckland and the poor folks in Dunedin would just have to suck up the outcome of the election. There wouldn't really even be a need to go down there and talk to them.

Ok, ok... lecture mode off but... I figured Trump to win sometime back around September. Hillary maybe be have been a poor candidate but, Obama blew her chances out of the water.

Peace!

It's hard to know where to start. The electoral college was not established for that reason, and also it doesn't work like that.

jarledb

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#1696275 29-Dec-2016 19:11

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tdgeek:

But along the lines of popular vote vs electoral vote, the people decided, so it's not really a mess, it's what the US citizens wanted.

I disagree. The election was rigged, and the party of the guy that won (and was shouting about how it was rigged, unless he won) rigged it.

They rigged it with the help of the number one "news" channel, Fox news (which is basically a GOP propaganda channel), by using social media and targeting ads both at people they were able to figure out would vote Republican and Democrat, and by making it harder for people that typically vote for the Democrats to vote.

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JWR

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#1696277 29-Dec-2016 19:13

tdgeek:

JWR:

tdgeek:

Democracy isn't idealistic. And it's not really a preference. The end user, I.e the citizens choose a leader. That's not idealism at all. The only thing I can think of to improve democracy it to make it illegal not to vote. But if you don't have to vote and you don't, that's tough bikkies. The people have spoken, not a law or dictator, that's the difference

That is an idealistic reply.

I'll correct you. That is your opinion. If you locate a means to allow the populous to vote 100% for a new leader, we have perfection. That will never happen. At the other end is a dictator. End of the day, every few years, the populous votes

Already said it was my opinion.

Yet, you are intent on 'correcting me!', Do you have a CONTROL complex?

People have been arguing Democracy for a couple of thousand years.

Yet, it is possible to see what is more or less Democratic in the modern World.

tdgeek

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#1696283 29-Dec-2016 19:19

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jarledb:
tdgeek:

But along the lines of popular vote vs electoral vote, the people decided, so it's not really a mess, it's what the US citizens wanted.

I disagree. The election was rigged, and the party of the guy that won (and was shouting about how it was rigged, unless he won) rigged it.

They rigged it with the help of the number one "news" channel, Fox news (which is basically a GOP propaganda channel), by using social media and targeting ads both at people they were able to figure out would vote Republican and Democrat, and by making it harder for people that typically vote for the Democrats to vote.

And you feel that made Democrats change their vote in huge numbers? People weren't forced or deprived, but what I saw, was a well executed psychological response, and even then, he disenfranchised many, AND they were caught off guard that they won. If I had to lay blame, it's that the Democrats had a candidate, that IMHO was well qualified but the Americans don't like. She relied on common sense he relied on being in your face. Bad ads are very well in out into our brains, more than good ads.

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