So it begins...

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Networkn
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#1960570 19-Feb-2018 20:13

tdgeek:

So, what is the establishment? Old rich white males? Old white males? A leader who has been in power for a while? Serious question.

As to Trump, that is very irrelevant, which is obvious.

I don't think it is irrelevant in the context of just choosing someone that appears to be different in the hope it will be.

Many voted for him in the hope he would drain the swamp, fight for the underdog. Obviously, he has not done that.

The establishment in my view, is the traditional view of how things should be done.

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#1960576 19-Feb-2018 20:25

Our old white female wasn't exactly the answer for NZ. So maybe it's the age not the gender.

Eww Clark, agreed, terrible. Well, we had a couple of younger white ones too.

My personal opinion is that Nationals Keys to winning the next election:

1) Become more friendly to the environment, show they can balance a focus on financial responsibility and eco responsibility.

2) Show the same financial knowledge and competency as before

3) Strong constructively attack JA and Labour on their failure to deliver on election promises, and watering down of the promises they made.

4) Point out areas where Labour policies have not delivered.

I think this will get some of the Greens vote, and Labour Vote. All things being aligned Winston may be gone, and National can appeal to NZF and potentially Maori Party.

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#1960609 19-Feb-2018 21:07

rjt123:
Rikkitic:

Experience and qualifications, yes, but I don't think the revolt against older white males is just frizzy doo-dah. Older white males have had it their way for years, for centuries, for ever since Hera got pushed aside for Zeus. They have had their run. They haven't exactly fixed the world's problems. Maybe people just want to try something else to see if it might be better.

Our old white female wasn't exactly the answer for NZ. So maybe it's the age not the gender.

Nice attempt to rewrite history.

She had similar public popularity to John Key at their peaks. A frequent criticism of Clark was that she was for "Nanny State" and from "Helengrad", believers in which myths should perhaps list the great undoing of Clark's legacy by the subsequent Key government.

Don't think I'm being partisan, I'd actually defend even Muldoon from many accusations made with hindsight, for most of his time he was implementing policy that was popular and usually quite orthodox - from a global POV.

Not sure what haters would have wished Clark to do - follow on / expand from Roger Douglas, or send our young people to invade Iraq perhaps.

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#1960611 19-Feb-2018 21:15

networkn:

Our old white female wasn't exactly the answer for NZ. So maybe it's the age not the gender.

Eww Clark, agreed, terrible. Well, we had a couple of younger white ones too.

My personal opinion is that Nationals Keys to winning the next election:

1) Become more friendly to the environment, show they can balance a focus on financial responsibility and eco responsibility.

2) Show the same financial knowledge and competency as before

3) Strong constructively attack JA and Labour on their failure to deliver on election promises, and watering down of the promises they made.

4) Point out areas where Labour policies have not delivered.

I think this will get some of the Greens vote, and Labour Vote. All things being aligned Winston may be gone, and National can appeal to NZF and potentially Maori Party.

There was also some social responsibility they got wrong and English actually admitted to it several times. There does need to be some trickle down when things have been as good as they were/are.

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#1960616 19-Feb-2018 21:26

Fred99:

rjt123:
Rikkitic:

Experience and qualifications, yes, but I don't think the revolt against older white males is just frizzy doo-dah. Older white males have had it their way for years, for centuries, for ever since Hera got pushed aside for Zeus. They have had their run. They haven't exactly fixed the world's problems. Maybe people just want to try something else to see if it might be better.

Our old white female wasn't exactly the answer for NZ. So maybe it's the age not the gender.

Nice attempt to rewrite history.

She had similar public popularity to John Key at their peaks. A frequent criticism of Clark was that she was for "Nanny State" and from "Helengrad", believers in which myths should perhaps list the great undoing of Clark's legacy by the subsequent Key government.

Don't think I'm being partisan, I'd actually defend even Muldoon from many accusations made with hindsight, for most of his time he was implementing policy that was popular and usually quite orthodox - from a global POV.

Not sure what haters would have wished Clark to do - follow on / expand from Roger Douglas, or send our young people to invade Iraq perhaps.

Personally what I wanted her to do, was to leave, as quickly as possible and never return. I even offered to pay.

I believe she stayed 3 terms too many, but unquestionably in my mind, at least the last. She should have taken her position at the UN when it was offered the first time.

Labours undoing were their own actions. The Anti Smacking repeal was probably the last straw but they became impossibly arrogant. I know people felt controlled. Many people felt that Clark thought she knew better than them how to raise a family.

Comparatively, I don't think National were seen as arrogant, I think they made some mistakes, but mostly people just want change after 3 terms, though nowhere near as many as most might of thought.

The Healthcare debacle becoming so public close to the election, the fact that they didn't really acknowledge how many people were struggling to get homes, and being slippery with NZF, probably cost them a 4th term, and really by a pretty slim margin. It's unclear to me how big of a problem the 11B deficit that Joyce kept on about was for voters, but in my mind they should have just attacked Labours poorly thought out campaign promises, like the 100,000 houses.

I am completely dreading Labours promised tax proposals, I'd feel so much more comfortable with National performing those, just like I would rather see Labour undertake the National mental health review, each to their respective strengths.

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#1960618 19-Feb-2018 21:40

National weren't arrogant at all in my opinion, but they did show some elements of being tired and needed some replenishment which should have happened after Key quit.

networkn

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#1960620 19-Feb-2018 22:02

Pumpedd:

There was also some social responsibility they got wrong and English actually admitted to it several times. There does need to be some trickle down when things have been as good as they were/are.

They took a year too long to start spending some money on social things I think. If they had started, then they would have taken some of the wind out of Labours Sails.

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Rikkitic

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#1960624 19-Feb-2018 22:09

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/350771/labour-surges-to-new-levels-of-support-in-latest-poll

Of course you can always try to put a negative spin on this, or make some observation about the mass of people not having the intelligence to make good political choices, or not being able to name three MPs, but what is says to me is that many people are not at all unhappy with how Jacinda Ardern is doing. Maybe, just possibly maybe, some people here are out of step with the popular sentiment.

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networkn

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#1960626 19-Feb-2018 22:16

Well there is the form over function thing? Also they are cannibalising their support partners. It's natural slightly less support for national during a leadership vacuum.

Also, once upon a time the popular sentiment was that the world was flat!

Rikkitic

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#1960627 19-Feb-2018 22:18

You're reaching. Maybe it is just time to admit you are on the wrong side of history.

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tdgeek

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#1960628 19-Feb-2018 22:18

networkn:

tdgeek:

So, what is the establishment? Old rich white males? Old white males? A leader who has been in power for a while? Serious question.

As to Trump, that is very irrelevant, which is obvious.

I don't think it is irrelevant in the context of just choosing someone that appears to be different in the hope it will be.

Many voted for him in the hope he would drain the swamp, fight for the underdog. Obviously, he has not done that.

The establishment in my view, is the traditional view of how things should be done.

It's totally irrelevant. Americans were stuck. Cant elect Obama, but he couldnt do much as GOP had the Upper House Senate locked down. Didnt trust Clinton, and the TV rich guy who is bigly on marketing sold em the carrot. Sold that to the rust belt, the hard doers. Evan at that he was shocked he won. Calling him an idiot is a vast understatement. You cannot compare him to any politician.

If that is the definition of establishment, then every party is the establishment, as every person has a party, and that party is how things should be done. Traditional? Nats were in 9 years thats traditional, so was Labour.

Sorry, but both are just partisan answers.

tdgeek

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#1960630 19-Feb-2018 22:25

What I believe is that if JA etc did really well, and National imploded, none of the posts here would change, not one. Now, the thread isnt here to change people's voting minds, but its wildly partisan. Yes, that goes both ways, but wow.

So, I'll do what I did in the JA thread, unsubscribe and never look at it, its a tad painful to read :-)

networkn

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#1960635 19-Feb-2018 22:42

tdgeek:

What I believe is that if JA etc did really well, and National imploded, none of the posts here would change, not one. Now, the thread isnt here to change people's voting minds, but its wildly partisan. Yes, that goes both ways, but wow.

So, I'll do what I did in the JA thread, unsubscribe and never look at it, its a tad painful to read :-)

Did really well by what definition? If she executes her policies then she did a horrible job (From my perspective). If she causes the Coalition to implode and they can't complete policy, then at least she would have done something for NZ :) (Yes I am being a little unkind, a little tongue in cheek).

While Labour policies are as they are stated now, my opinion of Labour isn't likely to change. Some might not have the impact I predict, and if that's the case, then some credit they might get, but it would depend on other factors too.

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#1960637 19-Feb-2018 22:46

tdgeek:

It's totally irrelevant. Americans were stuck. Cant elect Obama, but he couldnt do much as GOP had the Upper House Senate locked down. Didnt trust Clinton, and the TV rich guy who is bigly on marketing sold em the carrot. Sold that to the rust belt, the hard doers. Evan at that he was shocked he won. Calling him an idiot is a vast understatement. You cannot compare him to any politician.

If that is the definition of establishment, then every party is the establishment, as every person has a party, and that party is how things should be done. Traditional? Nats were in 9 years thats traditional, so was Labour.

Sorry, but both are just partisan answers.

I never said he was establishment, I said he was elected to disrupt the establishment. He was to go against the tried and true that Americans thought had failed them, boy I bet they wish they had gone with Clinton now (Though I agree, she wasn't a great choice either). Trump isn't a politician, hence anti establishment.

But there are two major things that would have been better under Clinton, gun controls would be tighter, not more lax and Americans would be spending a lot less time with heads in hands, apologizing to strangers for their President.

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#1960638 19-Feb-2018 22:47

Rikkitic:

You're reaching. Maybe it is just time to admit you are on the wrong side of history.

How's that again? I see NO evidence to support that viewpoint.

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