UK prime minister Boris Johnson

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#2333268 9-Oct-2019 11:03

I'm trying to steer clear of the Brexit discussions, because I'm not an expert, and most people have already made up their minds.

Any referendum, or election, will have some hyperbole and exaggeration.

I do hate "bouncing" politics. My self, and most business leaders, want to see stability, even if they don't agree with decisions.

But the Brexit referendum (and the 2016 presidential election) have gone beyond this norm, into downright deception and conspiracy theories.

Just my thoughts.

elpenguino

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#2333290 9-Oct-2019 11:50

Point of order: There was no majority backing for Trump.

Trump is the fifth person in U.S. history to become president while losing the nationwide popular vote.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election

There would have been no majority vote for brexit had the vote been conducted against a background of truth but the remain campaign forgot who they were dealing with - a bald faced liar.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Rikkitic

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#2333294 9-Oct-2019 11:55

A majority of one on a 50-50 split is technically a majority, but it also leaves a huge reservoir of doubt and dissatisfaction. Brexit has been a monumental stuff-up from the very beginning, from the terms of the referendum to the way it was decided. As Tusk just pointed out, the ongoing UK clown act does not only affect the UK, but all of Europe.

Trump legitimately won the presidential election according to the long-established rules of that process, and no 'liberal' I know of has ever tried to dispute that. All efforts to dislodge him are based entirely on his appalling behaviour, shameless corruption, and overwhelming incompetence. These efforts, like the election itself, are being pursued according to accepted long-established rules and no-one on the liberal side is trying to change them. The White House and the Republican party may be another matter.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

kingdragonfly

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#2333297 9-Oct-2019 12:08

I shouldn't have brought the 2016 presidential election in to it.

By bringing it up, and suggesting a similarity, I have played into the primary Republican argument that Trump is being impeached because the Democrats want to overturn the election. Any lawlessness, and disdain for justice, is squarely on Trump and minions alone.

Again I know very little about Brexit, but rightly or wrongly, I am still struck by the image of this bus.

It sounds like the guy behind the bus has regrets.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/07/04/man-behind-350m-brexit-bus-lie-just-said-leaving-the-eu-is-an-error-6754392/

Sideface

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#2333301 9-Oct-2019 12:14

Rikkitic: ... Brexit has been a monumental stuff-up from the very beginning ...

Agreed.

This debate should be solely about whether or not Brexit is a good idea.

It should be totally irrelevant whether voters are "liberal" or "conservative", "left-wing" or "right-wing".

Unfortunately there is a 50:50 split in opinion.

I don't believe that there is a "silent majority" - or any majority.

My personal view as a UK expat is that Brexit is ill-advised and suicidal, and that Boris is the worst possible person to be in power at a time of (self-inflicted) national crisis. 😐

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gzt

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#2333305 9-Oct-2019 12:27

DS9: I'm becoming increasingly concerned with those that claim to be liberal, if a vote doesn't go their way, they believe we should keep voting until everyone gets it 'right'...

What's with the labels? Pretty sure Johnson is a liberal on most issues.

DS9

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#2333317 9-Oct-2019 12:55

gzt:
DS9: I'm becoming increasingly concerned with those that claim to be liberal, if a vote doesn't go their way, they believe we should keep voting until everyone gets it 'right'...

What's with the labels? Pretty sure Johnson is a liberal on most issues.

I'm liberal on many issues, yet Brexit (for which I voted for) is always regarded as a right wing policy. So until Brexit happens and the UK is free of the bureaucrats of EU, I'm clearly a RWNJ as I'm often called by 'liberals'.

I aim to misbehave.

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Fred99

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#2333351 9-Oct-2019 13:28

DS9:
gzt:
DS9: I'm becoming increasingly concerned with those that claim to be liberal, if a vote doesn't go their way, they believe we should keep voting until everyone gets it 'right'...

What's with the labels? Pretty sure Johnson is a liberal on most issues.

I'm liberal on many issues, yet Brexit (for which I voted for) is always regarded as a right wing policy. So until Brexit happens and the UK is free of the bureaucrats of EU, I'm clearly a RWNJ as I'm often called by 'liberals'.

I don't consider it a "right wing" policy. Plenty of Labour voters in the UK are pro-Brexit and it clearly split both the Tory and Labour parties. Brexit is populist nationalist movement, much the same as Trumpism, that's reared its ugly head for the same reasons.

DS9

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#2333371 9-Oct-2019 13:58

Fred99:
DS9:
gzt:
DS9: I'm becoming increasingly concerned with those that claim to be liberal, if a vote doesn't go their way, they believe we should keep voting until everyone gets it 'right'...

What's with the labels? Pretty sure Johnson is a liberal on most issues.

I'm liberal on many issues, yet Brexit (for which I voted for) is always regarded as a right wing policy. So until Brexit happens and the UK is free of the bureaucrats of EU, I'm clearly a RWNJ as I'm often called by 'liberals'.

I don't consider it a "right wing" policy. Plenty of Labour voters in the UK are pro-Brexit and it clearly split both the Tory and Labour parties. Brexit is populist nationalist movement, much the same as Trumpism, that's reared its ugly head for the same reasons.

Trumpism is nationalism, Brexit is something different. People were fed up with low quality Eastern European migration and wanted high quality worldwide migration (at least those I've spoken to), for which the UK has no control of, yet.

I aim to misbehave.

elpenguino

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#2333377 9-Oct-2019 14:05

DS9:
Fred99:

DS9:
gzt:
DS9: I'm becoming increasingly concerned with those that claim to be liberal, if a vote doesn't go their way, they believe we should keep voting until everyone gets it 'right'...

What's with the labels? Pretty sure Johnson is a liberal on most issues.

I'm liberal on many issues, yet Brexit (for which I voted for) is always regarded as a right wing policy. So until Brexit happens and the UK is free of the bureaucrats of EU, I'm clearly a RWNJ as I'm often called by 'liberals'.

I don't consider it a "right wing" policy. Plenty of Labour voters in the UK are pro-Brexit and it clearly split both the Tory and Labour parties. Brexit is populist nationalist movement, much the same as Trumpism, that's reared its ugly head for the same reasons.

Trumpism is nationalism, Brexit is something different. People were fed up with low quality Eastern European migration and wanted high quality worldwide migration (at least those I've spoken to), for which the UK has no control of, yet.

You're unable to use google ?

"The UK’s current system for admitting non-EU citizens is known as ‘The Points-based System’ although it is quite different from the Australian model and relies heavily on employers to decide which workers have the skills that they need."

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/reports/the-australian-points-based-system-what-is-it-and-what-would-its-impact-be-in-the-uk/

Nationalism is worldwide right now and we have a taste of it in our coalition government.

Always amazed me to hear people speculate 'how could such an educated, cultured nation as Germany fall for nazism' yet here we are with nationalism running rampant in modern western democracies.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

DS9

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#2333390 9-Oct-2019 14:33

Clearly you didn't read my post, or choose to read it how you wanted to. The UK cannot control its borders... yet, as you pointed out it has only got control of direct non-EU (though not EU nationalised) citizens, when the UK leaves the EU, I bet a majority of migrants will still be from the EU, but no longer disproportionately from the Eastern European countries and the migration numbers will be the same if not higher.

Also, I know Godwin's law is always enacted, but I have yet to see a subset of society (Jews, Maori or any other) being rounded up! This evoking of Nazis to argue against being a member of the EU is quite disgusting and has no place.

I aim to misbehave.

elpenguino

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#2333416 9-Oct-2019 14:59

DS9: Clearly you didn't read my post, or choose to read it how you wanted to. The UK cannot control its borders... yet, as you pointed out it has only got control of direct non-EU (though not EU nationalised) citizens, when the UK leaves the EU, I bet a majority of migrants will still be from the EU, but no longer disproportionately from the Eastern European countries and the migration numbers will be the same if not higher.

Also, I know Godwin's law is always enacted, but I have yet to see a subset of society (Jews, Maori or any other) being rounded up! This evoking of Nazis to argue against being a member of the EU is quite disgusting and has no place.

Re godwin's law, i did not at any point compare anyone to Adolf Hitler (Hi Mauricio!). I'm talking about ideologies.

Yes, granted the uk is not setting up concentration camps.

My point was that underlying nationalism is the idea that 'we' are different to 'them'. Different is only a hop skip and jump away from 'better'. If 'we' are better than 'them', we need to do something about it.

Usually the biggest difference between people is that they came out of a different uterus.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

gzt

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#2333462 9-Oct-2019 17:29

DS9:
gzt:
DS9: I'm becoming increasingly concerned with those that claim to be liberal, if a vote doesn't go their way, they believe we should keep voting until everyone gets it 'right'...

What's with the labels? Pretty sure Johnson is a liberal on most issues.

I'm liberal on many issues, yet Brexit (for which I voted for) is always regarded as a right wing policy. So until Brexit happens and the UK is free of the bureaucrats of EU, I'm clearly a RWNJ as I'm often called by 'liberals'.

I see, well that hasn't happened in this forum to my knowledge.

DS9

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#2333509 9-Oct-2019 18:00

gzt:
DS9:
gzt:
DS9: I'm becoming increasingly concerned with those that claim to be liberal, if a vote doesn't go their way, they believe we should keep voting until everyone gets it 'right'...

What's with the labels? Pretty sure Johnson is a liberal on most issues.

I'm liberal on many issues, yet Brexit (for which I voted for) is always regarded as a right wing policy. So until Brexit happens and the UK is free of the bureaucrats of EU, I'm clearly a RWNJ as I'm often called by 'liberals'.

I see, well that hasn't happened in this forum to my knowledge.

No it hasn't since I've been contributing, but I can link to many 'liberal' sites that use it and remainers have said it to my face while in the UK.

I aim to misbehave.

Fred99

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#2333522 9-Oct-2019 18:58

DS9:
Also, I know Godwin's law is always enacted, but I have yet to see a subset of society (Jews, Maori or any other) being rounded up! This evoking of Nazis to argue against being a member of the EU is quite disgusting and has no place.

Godwin's law according to Godwin isn't invoked if there's a reasoned comparison.

BTW, the Nazis didn't immediately begin "rounding up" jews. That followed a decade(s) long period of demonisation and anti-semitism, scapegoating and effectively dehumanising them, until a "silent majority" of people just accepted what was to come.

The problem with hyper-nationalism is that it's fuelled by a false belief that the group of people they identify with are qualitatively better than others - "special". You aren't and I'm not either.

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