NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3123451 4-Sep-2023 09:22

gzt: I'm aware there's a lot of fear about Te Pati Maori for some reason. For that reason I'm going to quote part of Rawiri Waititi's adjournment speech also on Te Pati Maori Facebook:

"What does an Aotearoa hou look like? It looks like how we would treat you on the marae. We will welcome you. We will feed you. We will house you. We will protect you. We will educate you. We will care you. We will love you." "Te Pāti Māori is a movement that leaves no one behind, whether you are tangata whenua or a tangata Tiriti, tangata hauā, takatāpui, wāhine, tāne, rangatahi, mokopuna-you are whānau."

Well he's not going to talk down his own policies or point out the flaws with their proposals are they?

If people still want to trust politicians when it comes to just blindly believing whatever they trot out to make themselves sound good, and not apply some degree of scrutiny (I've given up on expecting people to be even-handed about it) then frankly we deserve everything they get.

tdgeek

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#3123452 4-Sep-2023 09:32

Been busy last 3 days, so not interested in the news, although I did see some phone alerts that both Chris's started campaigning in earnest. That B. Tamaki has been an idiot again, and that Tova had some article that this is a tax election. TBH I'm not even that inclined to do a catchup on this election news. It is a back pocket election, the other stuff doesn't seem to matter

ockel

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#3123459 4-Sep-2023 09:56

Labours policy to extend free dental care to the 18-30's. https://www.labour.org.nz/news-labour_commits_extend_free_dental_care

Unlike the Greens, who will introduce their wealth tax to pay for it, Labour are funding it out of Budget 2025 and beyond. If only it were so easy for political parties to magic up extra funding in future budgets then they'd all make $100m/pa promises here and there.

Increasing the number of dental training spots is great by it'll only have an impact at the end of the decade, by which time we'll have 4-6 month waiting lists to see a dentist and post-code lotteries in the regional/rural settings.

Surely if childrens oral health is an issue (and its already free!) then this should be fixed before increasing the population pool for free dental services.

Questions:

Will this be like mental health budget in 2019 with no new beds created 2 1/2 years later https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/data-shows-despite-govts-19b-mental-health-budget-no-improvement-in-total-beds-for-patients/AGXVJKXKOZEL5KXH5NOGNOTNQA/ (and a continually declining workforce).

Will this be like the promise of 20 new mobile dental clinics in remote areas in 2020 and charged against Budget 2021 (much like dental for 18-30's being charged against Budget 2025) but cast aside in Budget 2021 in favour of restructuring into HealthNZ. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pleas-mount-for-government-help-with-dental-grants-not-increased-in-decades/5OG5BUQGEI5V3NICA3RZDMYB3M/

Like Kiwibuild (100,000 in 10 years - not even 2,000 in 6 years) , ALR (by 2021, not even started), reducing child poverty, a second harbour crossing + more light rail etc etc I have zero confidence in delivery of another pie-in-the-sky focus group policy.

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

Rikkitic

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#3123465 4-Sep-2023 10:14

ockel:

Labours policy to extend free dental care to the 18-30's. https://www.labour.org.nz/news-labour_commits_extend_free_dental_care

I agree with all this. I also feel exactly the same about the magical funding for National's policies. Our elections are like fairground barkers at a circus. Why is it so hard for us to produce serious political parties and good government? Where are the alternatives?

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

tdgeek

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#3123466 4-Sep-2023 10:14

In that case you can vote either party to achieve the same ?

A bit luke warm on how to pay facts here https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300963463/whizz-bang-but-nationals-campaign-launch-more-fizzle-than-pop

sen8or

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#3123472 4-Sep-2023 10:36

The current labour Govt couldn't deliver a pizza even with Google maps guiding them, let alone something with as many moving parts as the dental plan they are proposing.

Unfortunately, basics don't sound good on the campaign trail, a clear path to an achievable goal at some near point in the future -

Education - an extra x no of classrooms and y no of teachers by the end of z period. To get there, our initial goal will be to have 20% of x&y locked away by this date by doing the following actions costing this many millions. We will have 50% of x&y locked away by this date by doing the following actions costing this many millions and so on and so forth. Change the policy (education, justice, health etc) but have clear / concise plans set out that are transparent and robust.

Even if other parties were throwing around election bribes like candy, I would sooner vote for a party that could at least draw out a pathway that was achievable.

None of the current problems are fixable in a short time frame (less than 3 years), but we can at least work towards things

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#3123477 4-Sep-2023 11:01

sen8or:

Even if other parties were throwing around election bribes like candy, I would sooner vote for a party that could at least draw out a pathway that was achievable.

None of the current problems are fixable in a short time frame (less than 3 years), but we can at least work towards things

Bold 1. They are

Bold 2 Conservative govts don't deliver much by default. 14B is now locked away.

Labour has delivered plenty, but not the flagship policies, granted. If they cannot deliver and of National won't, same deal, so vote based on your back pocket

If National struggles to satisfy scrutiny about how they plan to pay for their bribes, then what?

So far we have gst off Brocolli and free fillings for some, vs tax cuts, thats it.

ockel

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#3123478 4-Sep-2023 11:13

tdgeek:

Bold 1. They are

Bold 2 Conservative govts don't deliver much by default. 14B is now locked away.

Labour has delivered plenty, but not the flagship policies, granted. If they cannot deliver and of National won't, same deal, so vote based on your back pocket

If National struggles to satisfy scrutiny about how they plan to pay for their bribes, then what?

So far we have gst off Brocolli and free fillings for some, vs tax cuts, thats it.

Could you do me a small favour and list off the things that Labour has achieved?

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

tdgeek

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#3123480 4-Sep-2023 11:19

ockel:

Could you do me a small favour and list off the things that Labour has achieved?

https://www.labour.org.nz/our-record

On2or3wheels

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#3123487 4-Sep-2023 12:02

ockel:

Could you do me a small favour and list off the things that Labour has achieved?

They must have achieved quite a bit looking at the long list of policies National want to repeal.

ockel

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#3123488 4-Sep-2023 12:03

tdgeek:

ockel:

Could you do me a small favour and list off the things that Labour has achieved?

https://www.labour.org.nz/our-record

Its an impressive list but plenty of things there are things that were already in place prior to taking power (like the 7 trade deals - the UK and EU ones negotiations could be attributable to the 6th Labour Government) and some are promises of things that they will do (like the ECE for 2 year olds).

Some are pure marketing spin - like taking action to hold supermarkets to account (and then also claiming the Supermarket Commissioner as another achievement for some double counting). What has actually been achieved here that has fundamentally held the supermarkets to account? There has been a market study (like petrol retailing - again what has been achieved?)

Settling wage increases because you've had unprecedented strike action by nurses, teachers etc is hardly an achievement. Its a failure as an employer to look after your staff. [Like they keep telling the private sector who have shortages - pay them more!] Even senior doctors, who have never been on strike ever under any previous left or right Government, will be striking tomorrow - is that going to be an achievement when an arbitrator forces them to settle?

Even claiming things like RBI2 makes it laughable as a list of achievements . FFS RBI2 was announced in 2015!

How about you list the things you think they've achieved and convince me they deserve another 3 years?

Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination"

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Rikkitic

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#3123497 4-Sep-2023 12:33

ockel:

How about you list the things you think they've achieved and convince me they deserve another 3 years?

They do not deserve another three years. The problem is National does not deserve to replace them!

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

On2or3wheels

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Master Geek
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#3123501 4-Sep-2023 12:53

ockel:

Some are pure marketing spin - like taking action to hold supermarkets to account (and then also claiming the Supermarket Commissioner as another achievement for some double counting). What has actually been achieved here that has fundamentally held the supermarkets to account? There has been a market study (like petrol retailing - again what has been achieved?)

So true question, has National commented on what they would do about the supermarket duopoly? Or issues with our building supplies market? It's not something a right leaning party would normally care about.

tdgeek

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#3123502 4-Sep-2023 12:54

ockel:

How about you list the things you think they've achieved and convince me they deserve another 3 years?

How about you give us the reasons that National will perform? Or is that a bit delicate so lets put our head in the sand and win an election based "not about ourselves"

Serious question. Now I know that no matter what i say, I will get a Jehovah's Witnesses reply.

Yes, you can comment about Labour, so there you go, don't vote for them, sorted. Now should we then vote for National by default? The reason many didnt in 2017 was due to so many sectors just being left to rot, will that change? Not so much a dig, but while there is a time for a conservative govt, is now the time? Economically I would say yes, but does that mean give out lollies so our cut is bigger than theirs?

tdgeek

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#3123505 4-Sep-2023 13:00

Rikkitic:

They do not deserve another three years. The problem is National does not deserve to replace them!

Thats where I am at. But I do allow for

Covid/Ukraine and the resultant global issues, although in these threads we are reminded that the global stuff is very minimal... Its not
C Hipkins. J Adern ran the show from 2017, and while she often did well or very well, I feel inexperience failed her. Hipkins would do better, so is he worth a shot or not?
I severely have issues with Luxon and Willis's capability. Total newbies. They may well become good, maybe great, but they are total newbies. Too many ideas that were rolled back, and now they cant explain how to pay for the 14B lollies.

Just my 2 cents worth as I know that the needy sectors will be failed again. Inflation will continue to reduce so someone will erroneosly take credit for that. And so on

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