They lost the war on drugs

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#1681869 3-Dec-2016 20:01

PhantomNVD: And you still flogging that horse.

Just because they can't say definitively (and they have to have enough evidence to say so, they are the police after all, you say they are ignorant, simply because it doesn't suit your viewpoint.

Wrong is wrong... your view of what is wrong is your own (fair enough) but you're reaching the point of preaching it here (with your co ultra-liberal Fred99) and nobody else is agreeing or changing their mind.

Can't we just let this one rest now? (Or go to your MP and convince them!)

The problem with convincing an MP is that you'd need to convince them that it would be popular, which it wouldn't be due to the ignorance of the general public, as evidenced by some apparently authoritarian conservatives in this forum.

That's why I bother continuing to post - in the hope that some people might at least think about it - and stop regurgitating dogma from a failed campaign.

frankv

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#1681876 3-Dec-2016 20:12

MikeB4:

Fred99:

People are conservative because they're ignorant. They're ignorant because they've been targets of propaganda campaigns all their lives. The war on drugs has failed. Change is needed.

Wow, what an incredibly arrogant and insulting statement.

[snip]

I prefer to debate the issues not the person, insults and denigration lessen an argument not enhance it.

There's nothing particularly insulting about being identified as conservative or ignorant. Ignorant just means they don't have the information. People are also liberal because they're ignorant.

No-one has all the information. We all have to take decisions based on estimates and guesses and assumptions.

MikeB4

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#1681878 3-Dec-2016 20:16

And two individuals on here seem to be the self appointed judges of this and it's tiresome. Anyone that has a differing view to these two are denigrated or insulted.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#1681880 3-Dec-2016 20:21

MikeB4:

And two individuals on here seem to be the self appointed judges of this and it's tiresome. Anyone that has a differing view to these two are denigrated or insulted.

Self-appointed judges of what exactly?

Labelling a comment as "insulting" may describe how it feels to you, but does not necessarily describe the comment.

Fred99

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#1681881 3-Dec-2016 20:24

MikeB4:

And two individuals on here seem to be the self appointed judges of this and it's tiresome. Anyone that has a differing view to these two are denigrated or insulted.

Oh please. The title of the thread is "they lost the war on drugs".

Argue against that. Tell us how well you think they've been winning it perhaps.

I'm sick of being accused of denigrating or insulting you.

tdgeek

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#1681883 3-Dec-2016 20:30

Rikkitic:

Once again, the ostrich with its head in the sand is coming home to roost (pardon mixed metaphor). Violent crime and burglaries are on the increase, and according to an article in our local paper, at least some of this is being blamed on methamphetamine use. Here are two quotes from the police that caught my attention:

‘Because P was an illegal drug that people didn’t discuss freely, it was difficult to get a proper understanding of its use and whether that was increasing.’

In other words, it is difficult to take appropriate counter-measures because the scale of the problem is not well understood. Ignorance rules.

‘Police were unable to provide accurate statistics on “meth-related crime”, however, because even when there was a clear methamphetamine charge (such as possession) laid at the same time as a burglary or other charge, it was not possible to know whether methamphetamine played a role in actually causing the crime.’

More ignorance. As long as it remains illegal, authorities can only guess and speculate as to the best course of action.

Here is what astounds me: For many, many years a massive social experiment has been underway throughout the world. The premise of this experiment is that if you make drugs illegal and threaten severe punishments for being involved with them in any way, this will stop people from using them. This has been tried. Over and over. For a very long time in many different places. It has not worked anywhere. Yet many authorities carry on trying to poke a hole in water, though some are having increasing doubts.

The argument for legalisation is simple: The other thing has been tried and it hasn’t worked. So doesn’t it make sense to try something else? I do not, for the life of me, understand why so many people have such a hard time getting this. If something doesn’t work, you try something different.

Of course you can always be an ostrich instead.

So, for years and years people have always been robbing people, and the laws lock them up, that hasn't worked. Then what????? Make robbing not illegal?? No doubt you may scoff, BUT ITS THE SAME THING. There will always be those that break the law, fine, so be it, lock them up

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tdgeek

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#1681889 3-Dec-2016 20:44

MikeB4:

And two individuals on here seem to be the self appointed judges of this and it's tiresome. Anyone that has a differing view to these two are denigrated or insulted.

Thats it. This is a forum, we discuss stuff. We all have opinions, but some's opinions are stated as fact. OR, they are stated that if you believe that your an idiot.

I have no issue whatsoever with any opinions. Hell, I follow Trump, I am supremely qualified (follow him. not support BTW)

I DO have an issue when someone says what I say or someone else as says is BS, conspiracy, and the usual adjectives. So, by definition and practice. many of us here are idiots.

I am quite tired of Geekzone. Not the site itself or the vast majority of users, or those that provide the free time to manage and moderate, but those the seem free to be pretentious, and so on. I thought I'd seen it all when I saw a thread that Christmas is BS. Its also a retail conspiracy. So, fellow GZ'ers, there you go, XMAS is BS.

I am serious and on a serious note, might I ask the mods to look at name calling and attitudes here. I will qualify that, that there have been warnings. But this is Geekzone.co.nz, its not a place for keyboard warriors.

TBH I'm tempted to be very honest, and not bad, but say it like it is based on some posts I see. If I get banned, so be it.

SepticSceptic

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#1682268 5-Dec-2016 09:29

tdgeek:

Rikkitic:

Once again, the ostrich with its head in the sand is coming home to roost (pardon mixed metaphor). Violent crime and burglaries are on the increase, and according to an article in our local paper, at least some of this is being blamed on methamphetamine use. Here are two quotes from the police that caught my attention:

‘Because P was an illegal drug that people didn’t discuss freely, it was difficult to get a proper understanding of its use and whether that was increasing.’

In other words, it is difficult to take appropriate counter-measures because the scale of the problem is not well understood. Ignorance rules.

‘Police were unable to provide accurate statistics on “meth-related crime”, however, because even when there was a clear methamphetamine charge (such as possession) laid at the same time as a burglary or other charge, it was not possible to know whether methamphetamine played a role in actually causing the crime.’

More ignorance. As long as it remains illegal, authorities can only guess and speculate as to the best course of action.

Here is what astounds me: For many, many years a massive social experiment has been underway throughout the world. The premise of this experiment is that if you make drugs illegal and threaten severe punishments for being involved with them in any way, this will stop people from using them. This has been tried. Over and over. For a very long time in many different places. It has not worked anywhere. Yet many authorities carry on trying to poke a hole in water, though some are having increasing doubts.

The argument for legalisation is simple: The other thing has been tried and it hasn’t worked. So doesn’t it make sense to try something else? I do not, for the life of me, understand why so many people have such a hard time getting this. If something doesn’t work, you try something different.

Of course you can always be an ostrich instead.

So, for years and years people have always been robbing people, and the laws lock them up, that hasn't worked. Then what????? Make robbing not illegal?? No doubt you may scoff, BUT ITS THE SAME THING. There will always be those that break the law, fine, so be it, lock them up

Incorrect - robbing people directly inflicts damage and violation on a second party.

Drugs, including alcohol, prescriptions, are self-violation, and are taken by choice.

You don't have a choice in being murdered.

tdgeek

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#1682275 5-Dec-2016 09:49

SepticSceptic:

tdgeek:

Rikkitic:

Once again, the ostrich with its head in the sand is coming home to roost (pardon mixed metaphor). Violent crime and burglaries are on the increase, and according to an article in our local paper, at least some of this is being blamed on methamphetamine use. Here are two quotes from the police that caught my attention:

‘Because P was an illegal drug that people didn’t discuss freely, it was difficult to get a proper understanding of its use and whether that was increasing.’

In other words, it is difficult to take appropriate counter-measures because the scale of the problem is not well understood. Ignorance rules.

‘Police were unable to provide accurate statistics on “meth-related crime”, however, because even when there was a clear methamphetamine charge (such as possession) laid at the same time as a burglary or other charge, it was not possible to know whether methamphetamine played a role in actually causing the crime.’

More ignorance. As long as it remains illegal, authorities can only guess and speculate as to the best course of action.

Here is what astounds me: For many, many years a massive social experiment has been underway throughout the world. The premise of this experiment is that if you make drugs illegal and threaten severe punishments for being involved with them in any way, this will stop people from using them. This has been tried. Over and over. For a very long time in many different places. It has not worked anywhere. Yet many authorities carry on trying to poke a hole in water, though some are having increasing doubts.

The argument for legalisation is simple: The other thing has been tried and it hasn’t worked. So doesn’t it make sense to try something else? I do not, for the life of me, understand why so many people have such a hard time getting this. If something doesn’t work, you try something different.

Of course you can always be an ostrich instead.

So, for years and years people have always been robbing people, and the laws lock them up, that hasn't worked. Then what????? Make robbing not illegal?? No doubt you may scoff, BUT ITS THE SAME THING. There will always be those that break the law, fine, so be it, lock them up

Incorrect - robbing people directly inflicts damage and violation on a second party.

Drugs, including alcohol, prescriptions, are self-violation, and are taken by choice.

You don't have a choice in being murdered.

Unless its by a drunk or stoned user

MikeB4

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#1682276 5-Dec-2016 09:52

SepticSceptic:

tdgeek:

Rikkitic:

Once again, the ostrich with its head in the sand is coming home to roost (pardon mixed metaphor). Violent crime and burglaries are on the increase, and according to an article in our local paper, at least some of this is being blamed on methamphetamine use. Here are two quotes from the police that caught my attention:

‘Because P was an illegal drug that people didn’t discuss freely, it was difficult to get a proper understanding of its use and whether that was increasing.’

In other words, it is difficult to take appropriate counter-measures because the scale of the problem is not well understood. Ignorance rules.

‘Police were unable to provide accurate statistics on “meth-related crime”, however, because even when there was a clear methamphetamine charge (such as possession) laid at the same time as a burglary or other charge, it was not possible to know whether methamphetamine played a role in actually causing the crime.’

More ignorance. As long as it remains illegal, authorities can only guess and speculate as to the best course of action.

Here is what astounds me: For many, many years a massive social experiment has been underway throughout the world. The premise of this experiment is that if you make drugs illegal and threaten severe punishments for being involved with them in any way, this will stop people from using them. This has been tried. Over and over. For a very long time in many different places. It has not worked anywhere. Yet many authorities carry on trying to poke a hole in water, though some are having increasing doubts.

The argument for legalisation is simple: The other thing has been tried and it hasn’t worked. So doesn’t it make sense to try something else? I do not, for the life of me, understand why so many people have such a hard time getting this. If something doesn’t work, you try something different.

Of course you can always be an ostrich instead.

So, for years and years people have always been robbing people, and the laws lock them up, that hasn't worked. Then what????? Make robbing not illegal?? No doubt you may scoff, BUT ITS THE SAME THING. There will always be those that break the law, fine, so be it, lock them up

Incorrect - robbing people directly inflicts damage and violation on a second party.

Drugs, including alcohol, prescriptions, are self-violation, and are taken by choice.

You don't have a choice in being murdered.

The drugs are self inflicted but the crimes, violence etc committed when on mind altering drugs is inflicted on others with out choice.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Fred99

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#1682399 5-Dec-2016 11:46

Rikkitic:

‘Police were unable to provide accurate statistics on “meth-related crime”, however, because even when there was a clear methamphetamine charge (such as possession) laid at the same time as a burglary or other charge, it was not possible to know whether methamphetamine played a role in actually causing the crime.’

I don't think that there's much doubt that "meth" abuse long term can induce psychosis which can sometimes lead users to violent behaviour.

There have been some awful examples in NZ - but given the quantity of "P" consumed, presumed by evidence of quantity of seizures being around 1/3 of overall volume, perhaps it's overstated.

Most other drugs of abuse - no, not really, unless used in combination alcohol.

That's excluding criminality carried out because the user needs to get money for drugs, and the violent crime inevitably involved when black market gangsters fight to protect profits.

Combine that with paranoia from / exacerbated by drug-induced psychosis, and there's huge potential for danger.

It's probably (in my opinion) a drug so bad in terms of combined harm to the individual and society, that it really does need to be eliminated. How we're trying to achieve that by prohibition is not working.

So, we can keep doing what we've been doing (folly because it isn't working), go harder (how hard? The US is harder than here, they've got 2 million people incarcerated - many for drug offenses - but still have massive problems with abuse) - or try another way.

Instead of attacking me for suggesting that the other way - decriminalising and treating drug abuse as a medical problem - if there are any hard-liners who have an open mind, they could read this:

https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/56924096?access_key=key-xoixompyejnky70a9mq

Of course there are opposing views, but there's also a profitable multi-billion dollar global machine invested in the "war on drugs" who don't want it to end.

Here's a list of commissioners for that report. Please don't try to suggest they're a pack of sandal-wearing hippy liberals:

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Fred99

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#1682403 5-Dec-2016 11:56

MikeB4:

The drugs are self inflicted but the crimes, violence etc committed when on mind altering drugs is inflicted on others with out choice.

If you exclude criminality by individuals and groups involved in manufacture, distribution, and procurement of drugs, including acts committed to obtain money to buy drugs at inflated black-market prices, I don't think you'll find many cases of deliberate violence carried out by drug users (possible exception methamphetamine, alcohol - or alcohol in combination with other drugs).

Harm (to others) through neglect, self-harm - yes for sure. Preventing that is the objective of decriminalisation.

Where it's been tried - it seems to work. It's not a "cure" but all statistics, from overall addiction rates, overdose deaths, HIV infection rates, they're dropping.

MikeB4

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#1682406 5-Dec-2016 12:01

Fred99:
MikeB4:

The drugs are self inflicted but the crimes, violence etc committed when on mind altering drugs is inflicted on others with out choice.

If you exclude criminality by individuals and groups involved in manufacture, distribution, and procurement of drugs, including acts committed to obtain money to buy drugs at inflated black-market prices, I don't think you'll find many cases of deliberate violence carried out by drug users (possible exception methamphetamine, alcohol - or alcohol in combination with other drugs).

Harm (to others) through neglect, self-harm - yes for sure. Preventing that is the objective of decriminalisation.

Where it's been tried - it seems to work. It's not a "cure" but all statistics, from overall addiction rates, overdose deaths, HIV infection rates, they're dropping.

My work experience and my son's work experience tells a different story to your one when it comes to violence etc associated with substance abuse

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Rikkitic

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#1682407 5-Dec-2016 12:09

MikeB4:
Fred99:

MikeB4:

The drugs are self inflicted but the crimes, violence etc committed when on mind altering drugs is inflicted on others with out choice.

If you exclude criminality by individuals and groups involved in manufacture, distribution, and procurement of drugs, including acts committed to obtain money to buy drugs at inflated black-market prices, I don't think you'll find many cases of deliberate violence carried out by drug users (possible exception methamphetamine, alcohol - or alcohol in combination with other drugs).

Harm (to others) through neglect, self-harm - yes for sure. Preventing that is the objective of decriminalisation.

Where it's been tried - it seems to work. It's not a "cure" but all statistics, from overall addiction rates, overdose deaths, HIV infection rates, they're dropping.

My work experience and my son's work experience tells a different story to your one when it comes to violence etc associated with substance abuse

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Fred99

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#1682408 5-Dec-2016 12:09

MikeB4:

My work experience and my son's work experience tells a different story to your one when it comes to violence etc associated with substance abuse

Prove it.

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