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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections
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dafman
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  #1760206 10-Apr-2017 13:45
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Paul1977:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I disagree with the analysis for many reasons, but mainly because I feel it credits Trump with too much subtlety. He is not the kind of person who thinks things through and if he forgot to take out the airstrip, it was because he just didn’t think of it. Similarly, he is perfectly capable of not reacting to something he saw in 2013 and overreacting to the same thing today. He is a person who lets himself be governed by emotion and what he sees on TV and there is no reason he could not be genuinely upset about recent images of choking children, despite past lack of interest. He reacts to things as they catch his awareness. Also, the reason for giving prior notice to the Russians was purely to avoid World War III. This is SOP wherever the two countries have military forces operating in the same area. I do not see any particular strategy in all this. Trump saw something on TV that bothered him, and he reacted to it in typical Trump fashion. End of story.

 

 

 

 

But Trump doesn't make every decision in a vacuum. I'm sure he has many advisers much smarter than him who could have suggested this as a way to boost his popularity and distract from other issues.

 

 

Agree, Trump doesn't have the sophistication to mastermind this. But a puppet on a string ... ?

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  #1760211 10-Apr-2017 13:49
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dafman:

 

Agree, Trump doesn't have the sophistication to mastermind this. But a puppet on a string ... ?

 

 

Mastermind or puppet aren't the only two possibilities. 

sir1963
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  #1760215 10-Apr-2017 13:56
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Rikkitic:

 

sir1963:

 

And lets be honest here, why are children killed by Chemical Weapons any more horrid than having them blown up ? Dead is dead.

 

From Americas stand point, blowing up children must be allowed because that is what they are doing with their drones, civilian casualties etc.

 

 

All warfare is despicable but most nations put chemical warfare in a special category because of the horrific indiscriminate suffering it causes. Dead is dead, but the way you die still makes a difference. To kill a child with a bullet, you have to aim at the child. A bomb is less selective, but is at least usually intended to target an enemy. Chemicals just kill everyone in their path. There is a reason for the revulsion.

 

 

Bollocks, the limit is there for feel good factor. Not one parent, friend, relative, neighbour cares HOW someone was killed, they just remember WHO was killed.

 

Go to a military graveyard, is WHO not HOW on all the grave markers.

 

The whole point is to ensure that government has an acceptable way to kill, and by placing a "limit" it enhances that acceptability to the voters.

 

Syria has over 400,000 dead, goodness only knows how many maimed, and possibly the whole country mentally/emotionally damaged.

 

It has damaged the lives of generations to come, it is ALL abhorrent , no death more abhorrent than any other just because of the means.

 

 

 

 

Rikkitic
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  #1760219 10-Apr-2017 14:01
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It makes a difference to the person who dies. I will take a bullet over nerve gas any day.

 

 

 

 




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sir1963
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  #1760224 10-Apr-2017 14:07
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Rikkitic:

 

It makes a difference to the person who dies. I will take a bullet over nerve gas any day.

 

 

 

 

Having ones arm removed with a bullet and slowly bleeding out in agony is not a clean death. Thats another lie thats peddled to ensure that its acceptable.

 

Having a bullet in the gut, people can take days to die, simply because there is no adequate medical assistance there during war.

 

 

 

Most deaths in war are not "clean", but it makes the soldiers feel better about taking the lives of others.

Fred99
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  #1760226 10-Apr-2017 14:10
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Rikkitic:

 

I disagree with the analysis for many reasons, but mainly because I feel it credits Trump with too much subtlety. He is not the kind of person who thinks things through and if he forgot to take out the airstrip, it was because he just didn’t think of it. Similarly, he is perfectly capable of not reacting to something he saw in 2013 and overreacting to the same thing today. He is a person who lets himself be governed by emotion and what he sees on TV and there is no reason he could not be genuinely upset about recent images of choking children, despite past lack of interest. He reacts to things as they catch his awareness. Also, the reason for giving prior notice to the Russians was purely to avoid World War III. This is SOP wherever the two countries have military forces operating in the same area. I do not see any particular strategy in all this. Trump saw something on TV that bothered him, and he reacted to it in typical Trump fashion. End of story.

 

 

 

 

I tend to agree with that, probably a knee-jerk from Trump, but probably also some cool calculation going on from his advisors:

 

The past appearance of Trump being "too close" to Putin certainly didn't bother the alt:right Breitbart core support - and the reaction from them to the strike has been almost universal condemnation - about the most complimentary comments seem to be that "at least he might still be better than Clinton would have been".  They've obviously been loud cheerleaders for Trump until now, but their numbers are probably pretty small.  Their anti-liberal position was looking  untenable, unconstitutional and/or very unpopular with too many mainstream conservatives.  There was already a major split over ACA/AHCA between the still significant remains of the Tea Party and moderates.

 

Resistance to Trumpism from the left has been relentless, with much of the mainstream media against Trump, some would say because of bias of course - but when Fox news starts digging at him, then Trump will have taken notice.  Based on his tweets, Fox seems to be where he gets informed on current world and domestic affairs.

 

The perception of mutual admiration between Trump and Putin didn't seem tenable either.  Not with growing evidence of collusion in the election, circumstantially linked to the Kremlin, it was much too cosy and obvious. So would be a "pretend" disagreement.  Firing those missiles was quite a defining moment in relations, didn't harm the USA position with its allies, absolutely did harm perception of Russia's support of Assad by drawing attention.

 

Putin was always a danger to Trump from "kompromat". Presume that Russia don't have such a thing as "showergate" tapes, but at least plenty of comment could be made, embarrassing circumstantial evidence dumped by Russia about "help" to win the election. If Putin drops bombshells (difficult without admitting some serious evil himself), then it's now able to be defended as sour-grapes and "fake news".

 

A distraction was welcome. 

 

I also don't see that the attack was beneficial to Putin, he had about 80% popular support at home despite some protests that he'll suppress as he usually does, but it seems a little weak that he wasn't able to do anything - no point in collusion if there's no real win for Russia or Putin himself.  He's also not going to be able to tighten support for Assad at the expense of coalition ambitions under any circumstance, and that will seriously annoy him.

 

 

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  #1760257 10-Apr-2017 14:45
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sir1963:

 

Most deaths in war are not "clean", but it makes the soldiers feel better about taking the lives of others.

 

 

I think we are actually on the same side here. I detest warfare as much as you do, and I agree that governments conspire to keep the reality of it as far from the public as possible. I particularly dislike the annual Anzac circus, which seems to celebrate the 'glorious dead' as much as it pays lip service to the horrors of war. Galipoli and all that other misery was a hundred years ago, for chrissake. It is time to move on and get over it. Constantly rehashing it every year does absolutely nothing except persuade impressionable young kids that going off and getting killed in uniform is somehow glamorous. 




Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 

Fred99
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  #1760260 10-Apr-2017 14:48
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sir1963:

 

 

 

Having a bullet in the gut, people can take days to die, simply because there is no adequate medical assistance there during war.

 

 

 

 

As I understand it, Assad forbids medics from offering any medical intervention / assistance to any injured who are "suspected of" being "opposition".

 

He also forbids sale of medical supplies to organisations such as MSF.

 

(This could be some "fake news" as truth goes out the door when war comes in - but probably not, Assad is undeniably evil) 

Fred99
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  #1760277 10-Apr-2017 14:58
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Rikkitic:

 

I particularly dislike the annual Anzac circus, which seems to celebrate the 'glorious dead' as much as it pays lip service to the horrors of war. Galipoli and all that other misery was a hundred years ago, for chrissake. It is time to move on and get over it. Constantly rehashing it every year does absolutely nothing except persuade impressionable young kids that going off and getting killed in uniform is somehow glamorous. 

 

 

If that's happening, then only because the old anzacs are dying out. None of my ancestors who fought saw much glory, Anzac day was always sombre.

 

NZ in more recent times has been involved mainly in humanitarian and peacekeeping roles - as opposed to "waging war".

 

You do our service people an injustice if you're implying that they join up for fun and fighting and glamour.   

 

 

Rikkitic
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  #1760281 10-Apr-2017 15:04
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Not implying that at all, just objecting to the way things are sometimes presented. 

 

 




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MikeB4
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  #1760433 10-Apr-2017 20:45
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Rikkitic:

 

sir1963:

 

Most deaths in war are not "clean", but it makes the soldiers feel better about taking the lives of others.

 

 

I think we are actually on the same side here. I detest warfare as much as you do, and I agree that governments conspire to keep the reality of it as far from the public as possible. I particularly dislike the annual Anzac circus, which seems to celebrate the 'glorious dead' as much as it pays lip service to the horrors of war. Galipoli and all that other misery was a hundred years ago, for chrissake. It is time to move on and get over it. Constantly rehashing it every year does absolutely nothing except persuade impressionable young kids that going off and getting killed in uniform is somehow glamorous. 

 

 

I promised myself not to participate here again but I could not let this rubbish pass. I am in a family with a very long military history of sacrifice. Your post is both obnoxious and mostly garbage.

 

I strongly suggest you go and learn about what ANZAC day means before spouting bilge like this.




Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

darylblake
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  #1760462 10-Apr-2017 21:29
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Sorry but I have to agree.

You should attend an Anzac ceremony this year. Things change but history is not forgotten.

NZ have done a load of peace keeping missions. I have friends that have been in the military and might I tell you that while NZ and Australias army's are small they perform outstandingly.

Anyway getting off topic. This move is putin, and trump playing a strange political game. Putin has massive issues inside Russia at the moment. Sabre rattling makes him appear strong. Trumps support is also extremely poor, the timing of this military strike has been used to divert media attention. Bigger picture people. The Syrian conflict is going to go on for a number of years... unfortunately

Rikkitic
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  #1760470 10-Apr-2017 21:47
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I have attended the dawn ceremony and also seen TV coverage. I have also done some reading on the subject. I have a reason for feeling the way I do but I won't go into it here. I don't think this is the right place. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




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Fred99
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  #1760488 10-Apr-2017 22:45
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darylblake: Sorry but I have to agree.

Anyway getting off topic. This move is putin, and trump playing a strange political game. Putin has massive issues inside Russia at the moment. Sabre rattling makes him appear strong. Trumps support is also extremely poor, the timing of this military strike has been used to divert media attention. Bigger picture people. The Syrian conflict is going to go on for a number of years... unfortunately

 

My attitude hasn't changed about Trump.  He's a despicable lying idiot.

 

I'm not convinced that there was any plan or collusion for the strike.  It was too much of a reversal, from Trump's past statements (though he's such a serial liar, contradictions are routine) as well as IIRC Tillerson stating very plainly only a few days ago that replacing Assad was not an objective - but now it is.

 

My guess is that Ivanka and particularly Jared Kushner's influence is growing. Nepotism / Game of Thrones conspiracy theory - yes I admit.  Kushner is probably underestimated.  Importantly he's a modern orthodox jew and was until recently a Democrat, actually secular and not "anti-liberal" both of which were the clear agenda of the (Bannon's) alt:right to oppose.  IMO it's rare-ish for someone smart with secular and liberal views to reverse direction unless they have some kind of mental issue, epiphany, read Atlas Shrugged when stoned or get spiritually abducted by scientologists or some other cult.  I don't think that's happened. He's probably still liberal leaning and secular, rich (which Trump would like muchly), and I expect from his qualifications capable of putting together a convincing rational argument with his father in law - against Bannon's influence.

 

An "official source speaking on condition of anonymity" says that Kushner and Bannon have agreed to "bury the hatchet".  Not likely IMO when Bannon's been banished from his NSC seat. 

 

Change for the better?  A little perhaps.  Trump will still be Trump, but with someone reasonably sane to pull his strings, at least armageddon may be postponed.

Batman
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  #1760529 11-Apr-2017 03:41
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Forget Syria. Watch the Korean peninsula.

One certainly would hope he doesn't go on YouTube and watch videos of north Korea stirring his emotions and causing him to launch a few dozen missiles ...

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