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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections
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Fred99
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  #1772646 29-Apr-2017 22:09
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tdgeek:
Fred99:

 

AFAIK DPRK hasn't complained about THAAD - so you're wrong there.
DPRK's "illegal" nuclear tests aren't "illegal", as they (and India and Pakistan) aren't signatories to the 1996 CTBT, and each have conducted tests since then.

 

 

 

I'm not arguing that DPRK is being "reasonable" - they're dangerous nuts.

 

 

 

But I'm hopeful that views such as yours don't prevail, as you've spent a few pages basically arguing that all hope is lost for negotiation, so acts of war are needed.

 

 

 

 

 



Where did I say NK complained about THAAD?

WHere did I say the nuclear tests were illegal? 

 

A couple of posts above you state  "NK says their banned nuclear tests"

 

They're actually not banned, DPRK hasn't signed the nuclear test ban treaty, so the USA whining about DPRK nuclear tests has the same validity as a NZ politician whining about US gun control.

 

THAAD doesn't actually solve anything - but it potentially P*(*)&ses the crap out of China, and China could actually be important if solving the real issue of KJU's lunacy is going to happen.

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  #1772688 30-Apr-2017 01:38
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Fred99:

 

tdgeek:
Fred99:

 

AFAIK DPRK hasn't complained about THAAD - so you're wrong there.
DPRK's "illegal" nuclear tests aren't "illegal", as they (and India and Pakistan) aren't signatories to the 1996 CTBT, and each have conducted tests since then.

 

 

 

I'm not arguing that DPRK is being "reasonable" - they're dangerous nuts.

 

 

 

But I'm hopeful that views such as yours don't prevail, as you've spent a few pages basically arguing that all hope is lost for negotiation, so acts of war are needed.

 

 

 

 

 



Where did I say NK complained about THAAD?

WHere did I say the nuclear tests were illegal? 

 

A couple of posts above you state  "NK says their banned nuclear tests"

 

They're actually not banned, DPRK hasn't signed the nuclear test ban treaty, so the USA whining about DPRK nuclear tests has the same validity as a NZ politician whining about US gun control.

 

THAAD doesn't actually solve anything - but it potentially P*(*)&ses the crap out of China, and China could actually be important if solving the real issue of KJU's lunacy is going to happen.

 

They had signed an agreement as below. Got aid. Reneged.

 

From Wiki

 

In 2003, North Korea again announced its withdrawal from the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty.[13] In 2005, it admitted to having nuclear weapons but vowed to close the nuclear program.[19][20]

 

On October 9, 2006, North Korea announced it had successfully conducted its first nuclear test. An underground nuclear explosion was detected, its yield was estimated as less than a kiloton, and some radioactive output was detected.[21][22][23] On January 6, 2007, the North Korean government further confirmed that it had nuclear weapons.[24]

 

On March 17, 2007, North Korea told delegates at international nuclear talks that it was preparing to shut down its main nuclear facility. The agreement was reached following a series of six-party talks, involving North Korea, South Korea, China, Russia, Japan, and the United States begun in 2003. According to the agreement, a list of its nuclear programs would be submitted and the nuclear facility would be disabled in exchange for fuel aid and normalization talks with the United States and Japan.[25] This was delayed from April due to a dispute with the United States over Banco Delta Asia, but on July 14, International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors confirmed the shutdown of North Korea's Yongbyon nuclear reactor and consequently North Korea began to receive aid.[26] This agreement fell apart in 2009, following a North Korean missile test.

 

 

 

I really don't follow why THAAD is an issue. Its a defence against the aggressive nation launching missiles, which are 2.5 stone throws from Seoul and close also to Japan.

 

As I said, if the US armed SK with blatant missiles after recent events, thats blatant. But to have an issue over a measure that is JUST to shut down missiles that are launched in an attack, is pretty bizarre. China has stated that its issue is that they can be used to shut down their missiles if there was conflict, as in a higher US presence in SEA. So China needs to sort NK, pure and simple. China is the only hope in my opinion. NK wont back down, US wont back down. SK wont back down as they are the first target if NK attacked. Japan is concerned to put it mildly.

 

You mentioned SK's new Govt. What will they do? They I assume will still want unification, I cannot see that NK is wanting that at all. In fact KJU needs his people to be shielded from the free world. He cannot afford his people to get a sniff of a free world, prosperity, choice. If they did, and there was any access to SK, they will all walk. Based on what you said, I expect the new Govt may help, it will be interesting to see how that goes, hopefully some positive movement.

 

In the meantime I see no issue with the mild actions the US is taking, its hardly WW3 stuff, its very very mild compared to the reasons that cause such action.  

 

 

tdgeek
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  #1772689 30-Apr-2017 01:53
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I think where we disagree Fred, is that you appear to feel the US is the root cause of the NK issue. I feel NK is the root cause of it, and the US, and with support elsewhere reacts to NK's aggression. They agree, get aid, reneg. IMHO the West reaction has always been mild. Notably, its a reaction. NK does the action.

 

We agree that war isn't the solution, talks are, but the talks can ONLY be with China. NK cannot be trusted for anyone else, thats long proven.

gzt

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  #1772708 30-Apr-2017 08:13
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It is factually wrong to say talks have never had any effect. Unification talks led to many family reunions for instance. Nuclear talks led to inspections and shared knowledge of NK nuclear development, and reduced the pace of that development.

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  #1772711 30-Apr-2017 08:19
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gzt: It is factually wrong to say talks have never had any effect. Unification talks led to many family reunions for instance Nuclear talks led to inspections and shared knowledge of NK nuclear development, and reduced the pace of that development.

 

And after that, where are we now? The history of one part of the nuclear talks are in my post above. Talks = aid = reneg = talks = aid = reneg. If KJ* were tough tough leaders, and not ruthless (to their people) dictators, there is no doubt that talks, negotiations, and repatriation of NK to the world stage would have occurred.

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  #1772715 30-Apr-2017 08:38
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I see that China and NK are now aligning Russia as a support vehicle for NK re trade and reducing the sanction effect, and for UN votes. 

 

China doesnt feel its reasonable to make all the concessions, i.e. be the only nation to use economic pressure on NK, and that it sees THAAD as affecting Chinas strategic security. I.e. its not bothered with NK on that issue but itself. China wants US to pull back first. The US wants NK to pull back first before it pulls back, re tests vs ships and THAAD.  Given the history of NK reneging on everything, I feel thats fair. NK pulls back, then US pulls back, then its calmed down. Although to be fair, this NK issue isn't different to the many other issues, its more newsworthy as Trump is POTUS, even though the situation would be no or little different with any POTUS in power.

 

So, it appears to be a East vs West issue, with NK the nation in the middle.

 

SK protests indicate (depending if these are widely held or a vocal minority) that is the US a friend or occupational troops. 

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  #1772718 30-Apr-2017 08:52
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tdgeek: China is the only hope in my opinion. NK wont back down, US wont back down. SK wont back down as they are the first target if NK attacked. Japan is concerned to put it mildly.

China has already made their point of view clear to NK. What you and Trump are really asking from China is a total cessation of trade with NK.

Even if it happened, that is very unlikely to have any effect on NK nuclear policy or any other policy positions of NK. However, it is likely to cause unpleasant deprivation in NK and a strengthening of the central government.

The thing that people seem to forget about DPRK is that it's entire political economy is based on continued independence and reunification. SK proposed and NK agreed a federal recognition structure for the relationship between the two Koreas as one country. NK and SK athletes have at times competed under a single Korean flag designed for that purpose. Obviously USA is not keen on that, but that remains the way forward.

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  #1772761 30-Apr-2017 10:50
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gzt:
tdgeek: China is the only hope in my opinion. NK wont back down, US wont back down. SK wont back down as they are the first target if NK attacked. Japan is concerned to put it mildly.

China has already made their point of view clear to NK. What you and Trump are really asking from China is a total cessation of trade with NK.

Even if it happened, that is very unlikely to have any effect on NK nuclear policy or any other policy positions of NK. However, it is likely to cause unpleasant deprivation in NK and a strengthening of the central government.

The thing that people seem to forget about DPRK is that it's entire political economy is based on continued independence and reunification. SK proposed and NK agreed a federal recognition structure for the relationship between the two Koreas as one country. NK and SK athletes have at times competed under a single Korean flag designed for that purpose. Obviously USA is not keen on that, but that remains the way forward.


Me and Trump? You mean the west. Trump is not relevant here as this is a long term issue. So you mean that the US is the only nation who wants zero sanctions and let them do what they want? And you can't have independence and unification .who governs one Korea? How will KJU handle that as he won't be the leader of one Korea. Imagine if the US walked away when armistice occurred. Communist north vs capitalist south with no one involved in what happens the day after. I'd actually be all for that and let them talk and fight it out together. China and Russia would too. Japan and other regions? But I wasn't aware that the US was the only nation that wanted sanctions and felt the north was a threat.

The trend I see here is support for poor DPRK and anti US sentiment. And DPRK is and has never been a threat.

gzt

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  #1772796 30-Apr-2017 11:43
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Actually you can have independence and unification. The situation at present is two governments which both claim to be the government of the whole of Korea.

A one Korea, two governments, two territories approach is more or less what both parties agree in one form or another is the way forward:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_15th_North–South_Joint_Declaration

It is easily possible that Korea in future will politically unify and retain both government systems. From that point integration will continue. Full integration is unlikely to happen in just one generation.

kingdragonfly
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  #1772941 30-Apr-2017 17:25
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2017 White House Correspondents' Dinner

Click to see full size

It's weird because the President declined to attend (whiny little b*****), but also some Hollywood elite, and some corporate sponsors.

Presentation starts at 36 minute mark

Comedian Hasan Minhaj starts at one hour 20 (1:20)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhXxlwff7dA

frankv
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  #1772949 30-Apr-2017 17:40
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gzt: 

It is easily possible that Korea in future will politically unify and retain both government systems. 

 

I can't imagine any unification of Korea except by the complete and total collapse of one or other of the current regimes.

 

 

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  #1772975 30-Apr-2017 18:37
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frankv:

 

gzt: 

It is easily possible that Korea in future will politically unify and retain both government systems. 

 

I can't imagine any unification of Korea except by the complete and total collapse of one or other of the current regimes.

 

 

 

 

Exactly. 

 

"politically unify and retain both government systems" Never. Communist vs Capitalist. No. Never mind factoring in China and Russia.

 

Many complain about the US getting too involved. I very much agree. But you need to look at balance. US everywhere, no good. The other side everywhere, no good. The Cold War had balance. Goodies vs the Baddies, equally as powerful, and nothing happened, despite warheads ready and waiting on all targets on both sides. The Cuban crisis shows that power, but sense, and common sense prevailed.

 

But I can easily see Russia, China, Korea (being a SK over ruled by Russia and China to be a NK controlled Korea,) this is a large and military and economically powerful bloc. EXACTLY like the US bloc that Is currently in place. End of the day its East vs West. Makes the current NK issue seem very insignificant, which it is.

 

Then the US says it will embark on a big defence initiative, which is fair enough if Russia, China and SK controlled by KJU is in place, then everyone will say the US is creating a violent issue, but this is what NK has done all along. Back to the cold war. And Korea is just the wick. Back to the 50's, nothing has really changed, East vs West.

 

Those here who support the poor North Korea, its not about NK, its East vs West. NK is poor, offers nothing to anybody. East vs West. Russia/China/KJU  vs West

 

I prefer the current scenario where no one has absolutely control. SEA has a US involvement. US doesn't control anything there, China and Russia don't either. Not ideal, but its also not dangerous, unless you wish to read news hits such as Trump will push the button, KJU will press it, and so on. 

 

At least this possible scenario is not many nukes on both sides allowing nothing to happen, its just rhetoric and dicks playing games, also allowing nothing serious to happen.

 

Im pretty much out of this thread as its anti US sentiment and/or anti Trump sentiment (despite that Trump is totally and fully irrelevant) rather than the global view of all interested party nations. Id be very happy to see the US pull out 100% so you can see where the dust settles. And that will make the NK issue seem puny.

gzt

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  #1772990 30-Apr-2017 19:30
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frankv:

gzt: 

It is easily possible that Korea in future will politically unify and retain both government systems. 


I can't imagine any unification of Korea except by the complete and total collapse of one or other of the current regimes.



It is hard for us to imagine. Yet reunification has been the hope of ordinary people in South and North Korea for a long time now. It is possible.

China for instance created the 'One Country, Two Systems' doctrine for the purpose of Hong Kong and Macau and are still conventional 'capitalist' economies.

North South Korea unification would look a lot different to the above example because no one side will absorb the other. It would be a very slow process of increasing links. Both sides have put significant thought into unification. In addition DPRK recently removed communism from it's constitutional documents. Not a huge change but that's one less political barrier to unification.


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  #1772997 30-Apr-2017 19:44
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gzt:
frankv:

 

gzt: 

It is easily possible that Korea in future will politically unify and retain both government systems. 

 

I can't imagine any unification of Korea except by the complete and total collapse of one or other of the current regimes.

 

It is hard for us to imagine. Yet it has been the hope of ordinary people in South and North Korea for a long time now. It is possible. China for instance created the 'One Country, Two Systems' doctrine. Hong Kong and Macau are still conventional 'capitalist' economies. North South Korea unification would look a lot different to the above doctrine because no one side will absorb the other. It would be a very slow process of increasing links. Both sides have put significant thought into unification. In addition DPRK recently removed communism from it's constitutional documents. Not a huge change but that's one less political barrier to unification.

 

HKG and Macau were leased to the British, for 100 years. One Nation, Two Systems, not One Country. The leases expired, Macau 10 years or so later, and returned to China. These were not created by China, they were more inherited by China as HKG and Macau were already running. A material difference. They are autonomous, but they seek mainland China's approval.

 

Removed Communism? Thats BS. China is communist, but acts as capitalist, thats ok. DPRK is communist, end of story. They should remove Democratic that would make more sense. Take DPRK with a grain of salt. Rogue.

 

NK, which is governed by one person, cannot unify. Unless he is happy to step down, or is happy to seek votes from the full Korean population. That wont happen either.

 

You seem to have positive and good thoughts about the prospects, and it would be great if it can happen, but it cannot while NK is a dictatorship. 

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  #1773129 1-May-2017 06:49
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gzt:
frankv:

 

gzt: 

It is easily possible that Korea in future will politically unify and retain both government systems. 

 

 

 

I can't imagine any unification of Korea except by the complete and total collapse of one or other of the current regimes.


It is hard for us to imagine. Yet reunification has been the hope of ordinary people in South and North Korea for a long time now. It is possible.

China for instance created the 'One Country, Two Systems' doctrine for the purpose of Hong Kong and Macau and are still conventional 'capitalist' economies.

North South Korea unification would look a lot different to the above example because no one side will absorb the other. It would be a very slow process of increasing links. Both sides have put significant thought into unification. In addition DPRK recently removed communism from it's constitutional documents. Not a huge change but that's one less political barrier to unification.

 

I think Germany is a good example. East/West Germany only reunited after the collapse of the Communist bloc, despite it being the hope of ordinary people since 1945.

 

I expect that NK will be the same... more and more effort will be needed to maintain separatism, until all the resources are gone. The regime will then collapse, and Korea will be reunited and the North brought into the 21st Century, financed (and dominated) by the South. The relationship between the new Korea and China will be interesting... I expect not dissimilar to Hong Kong and China.

 

 

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