Simon Bridges bad week, month , year

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169 posts

Master Geek
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#2103335 8-Oct-2018 14:05

From your link:

What’s true - In 2018 the French Government introduced a law on sexual violence that did not introduce a minimum age of consent, despite earlier assurances that the legislation would do so.

Did Collins March in the streets? Did she protest outside the French Cafe and harass their diners? Did she cancel all French tourist visas or bomb one of their boats? Or anything remotely unhinged?

No, welcome to 2018 where tweeting asking whether a PM will denounce questionable behaviour is deemed going off the deep end.

Rikkitic

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#2103357 8-Oct-2018 14:49

Did you actually bother to read the article? The reason I ask is because it says this immediately after the part you selectively quote: “The 2018 law did not "say children can consent to sex with adults," and did not repeal an existing age of consent. The law actually strengthened penalties for sexual abuse against children in France.’

Regardless of what you say, the truth is that France has an age of consent and always has had. This has not been changed or removed. It is 15. The problem with it is that there is no definition of statutory rape, which makes the consent age meaningless. This is why the men who did it got off and why there was such a furore about it. The law was recently tightened and the penalties for coercion were increased, but for whatever reason, a promised revision that would have established an age limit for any kind of sex was not included, meaning the present confusing situation, which has clearly confused you, continues.

There is an age of consent in France. It is 15 as it has always been. But because of the way the law is framed, it is almost unenforceable as long as the child is not coerced. If you take the trouble to read the documentation on this, that will become clear to you.

By the way, the dictionary definitions of going off the deep end include ‘Become unduly excited, overwrought, or angry’ and ‘give way immediately to anger or emotion.’ That sounds about right to me.

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Reciprocity

169 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2103382 8-Oct-2018 15:11

Yeah, I read the link. It’s actually the same link I originally looked at when posting my summary of Collins’ grievous transgression.

It also states further on in the article:

Existing Law
There is no age of sexual consent in France.

Of course there are compensating controls. Frankly, I’m not in the least bit interested in the ins and outs of it.

The bottom line is that this was small time and trivial... the fact that you’re so inclined to dive into French legislation just demonstrates to everyone how desperate some people are to try and distract from the shambles that calls itself our Coalition Government.

Rikkitic

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#2103399 8-Oct-2018 15:28

The bottom line is you falsely accused Fred99 of a falsehood and I corrected that. You wouldn't accept my correction so I backed it up. You still won't accept it so here is the actual French statute that you seem to think doesn't exist.

If you are going to state falsehoods I will call you out on it. There is already enough fake stuff on the Internet.

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Fred99

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#2103424 8-Oct-2018 15:48

Collins tweeted fake news.

The article claimed that France was abandoning age-based sex laws. France was actually strengthening them.

Collins dug in on fake news - she doubled down.

To be fair to Bridges - I understand he did make some comment about Collins fake-news tweeting.

This isn't America - I hope it doesn't become so.

Fred99

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#2103425 8-Oct-2018 15:56

Reciprocity:

The bottom line is that this was small time and trivial... the fact that you’re so inclined to dive into French legislation just demonstrates to everyone how desperate some people are to try and distract from the shambles that calls itself our Coalition Government.

Oh get real.

Collins was posting fake news. It's laughable. Nothing at all to do with the coalition government - except Collins tried to goad Ardern by asking why she wasn't protesting what she thought was France legalising child sexual exploitation.

It was pretty obvious it was dodgy from the content and from the site (yournewswire.com) it was from.

You have to dive in to the (French) legislation a bit to prove that Collions was deluded when she doubled down to try to wiggle her way out of an embarrassing mistake - instead of being honest. Not desperate at all - sensible.

Reciprocity

169 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2103430 8-Oct-2018 16:13

Rikkitic:
The bottom line is you falsely accused Fred99 of a falsehood and I corrected that. You wouldn't accept my correction so I backed it up. You still won't accept it so here is the actual French statute that you seem to think doesn't exist.

If you are going to state falsehoods I will call you out on it. There is already enough fake stuff on the Internet.

I didn’t accuse Fredd99 of anything except for over-egging an issue.

I didn’t state falsehoods, I just quoted the “what’s true” and “existing law” sections from your snopes article

I’m not refusing your correction, I’m simply saying that I don’t care (and I also acknowledged that other French law covers this)

I do find it amusing the lengths you’re both prepared to go to to pitch this as a matter of national significance though.

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Fred99

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#2103435 8-Oct-2018 16:20

Reciprocity:

I do find it amusing the lengths you’re both prepared to go to to pitch this as a matter of national significance though.

A probable candidate to replace Bridges, who can't tell fact from fiction to the extent that she tweets fake news stories from known conspiracy theory sites is of national significance, in my opinion.

Rikkitic

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#2103452 8-Oct-2018 16:51

Reciprocity:

I didn’t accuse Fredd99 of anything except for over-egging an issue.

I didn’t state falsehoods, I just quoted the “what’s true” and “existing law” sections from your snopes article

You made an implied accusation that Fred99 was stating an untruth for the purpose of defaming Collins. To support that you said: ''Fact check - France does not have a minimum age of consent and refused to enact one when reviewing their legislation that covered it (despite promising to)'

That statement is untrue. An untruth is a falsehood.

I am not suggesting you intentionally lied, just that you play fast and loose with the 'facts' you cite. That is a bad practice. It is the basis of fake news.

The items you quoted from the article were selected to present a slanted viewpoint. The article was not very clear in places but it also contains quotes stating the precise opposite of what you quoted. To make sure I understood what was actually being said, I checked it against several other sources, including the relevant French statutes. If you are going to rely on published sources to lend your assertions an air of authority (never mind accuracy), you should do the same.

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169 posts

Master Geek
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#2103465 8-Oct-2018 17:21

Sigh... Seeing as you’re intent on painting me as peddling untruths...
Where in the legislation that you linked to does it disprove the snopes article that states there is no age of consent in France?

Google translate tells me that is says:

Except in the case of rape or any other sexual assault, the fact, by a major, of exerting sexual assault on a minor of fifteen years is punishable of seven years of imprisonment and 100 000 euro of fine.

That’s not about consent. That’s a crime of sexual assault

There is another section that deals with “sexual abuse without violence, coercion, threat or surprise to a minor over fifteen years. That only applies when the offender has “authority” over the victim

Again, nothing about consent.

As you’re determined to make this point, (which is contradicted by both links you provided) let’s see how we go.

MikeB4

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#2103474 8-Oct-2018 17:50

Without a degree in French Law I am not going near the legal arguments here. However it was faily obvious that Collins went off half cocked based on unreliable sources something that is disturbing for the Member that is ranked number 4 in the National Party line up to do.

Rikkitic

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#2103477 8-Oct-2018 18:07

Instead of misreading a bad translation, here is a legal review of age of consent legislation by the Southern African Aids Trust SRHR Africa Trust (SAT), which in collaboration with the Thomson Reuters
Foundation, 20 global law firms, and UNICEF, carried out an exhaustive study of age of consent legislation in different countries including France. The focus of the study is disease prevention in young people but it also had this to say:

In France the Age of Consent to sexual intercourse is 15 years and sexual assault on a minor person illegal
and punishable.
Legislation on Age of Consent to sexual intercourse
Article 227-25 of the French Penal Code: The commission, without violence, constraint, threat or surprise
of a sexual assault on a minor person under 15 years of age is punishable by five years’ imprisonment and a
75,000 Euro fine.
See also Article 388 of the French Civil Code: A minor is an individual of either sex who has not yet reached
the full age of 18 years.
Definition of statutory rape
France does have a definition for statutory rape and the penal code has provision for both a prison term as
well as a fine.
Legislation and policy framework on statutory rape
Article 227-25 of the Penal Code: The fact, for an adult, to exercise without violence, coercion, threat
or surprise a sexual assault on the person of a minor under 15 years of age is punishable by five years
imprisonment and a 75,000 Euro fine.
See also Article 388 of the French Civil Code: A minor is an individual of either sex who has not yet reached
the full age of 18 years.

French law, like our own, applies different standards to young people at different ages. 15 and 17 year-olds are both minors, but some parts of the law apply to them in different ways. Those differences have to do with the misinformation you are citing. All that translation is saying is that different acts with young people of different ages have different consequences, mainly in the form of the size of fines and length of prison sentences.

If you continue to insist, I will supply more detail but it takes time and I have other obligations.

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169 posts

Master Geek
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#2103524 8-Oct-2018 19:21

Interesting that you’re accusing me of selectively quoting, yet are happy to do so when it suits.
Notwithstanding the definition of minor, The legislation only applies in certain defined circumstances :

Sexual abuse without violence, coercion, threat or surprise to a minor over fifteen years of age is punishable by three years' imprisonment and a fine of € 45,000:

1 ° when committed by an ascendant or by any other person having a de jure or de facto authority over the victim;

2 ° When committed by a person who abuses the authority conferred on him by his functions.

While this is an interesting diversion, allow me to quote myself...

Reciprocity:
i don’t care

Whether snopes was technically accurate with regard to French law or not isn’t the point. The fact that Collins tweeted about it is minor league stuff

Rikkitic

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#2103553 8-Oct-2018 20:23

I don't care either. The only reason I'm making a point of it is because I don't approve of people glibly citing made-up or distorted 'facts' to try to win an argument when they are actually wrong. You are wrong about this but seem to have a problem accepting that.

In the meantime, I have been making my way through the French legal code. It is slow going but I have found numerous and irrefutable references, some just a few days old, that establish beyond any possible doubt that the French do have an age of consent for sexual activity, and that it is 15. Also that your misinterpretation of this is based on a misreading of the (poor) translations you were quoting.

I just have to put this all together into a package even you can understand. I will try to get to it tomorrow. I don't care whether you care or not. I don't even care if you bother to look at it. But don't try to shovel BS here again. If you think you have a point to make, do it properly, with good evidence. I have had it with crap.

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169 posts

Master Geek
Inactive user

#2103558 8-Oct-2018 20:41

Let me save you the trouble, seeing as this obviously has you a bit worked up.

You have proven that Collins was wrong.
You have proven that Snopes claim of truth is wrong
You have proven that the Google translate function gets it wrong
You have proven that I was wrong

...about the correctness or otherwise of a woman’s tweet.

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