Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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Forums › Politics › Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3090278 15-Jun-2023 13:00

sir1963:

Ahh...we are a free democracy. People are allowed to leave NZ.
We have people with all sorts of qualifications who head overseas, particularly if they are doing post graduate studies
Perhaps the better solution is to create an employment situation where they want to stay

8% of our NZ registered nurses now work in Australia.

Trapping people here in NZ is not actually solving the problem

Bonding doesn't have to be a forced thing. If I recall correctly there used to be an incentive program where the government would match student loan payments for medical graduates who went on to work in rural areas. In Australia, they even have to go so far as provide free accomodation to regional medical professionals!

sir1963

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#3090292 15-Jun-2023 13:48

Kyanar:

sir1963:

Ahh...we are a free democracy. People are allowed to leave NZ.
We have people with all sorts of qualifications who head overseas, particularly if they are doing post graduate studies
Perhaps the better solution is to create an employment situation where they want to stay

8% of our NZ registered nurses now work in Australia.

Trapping people here in NZ is not actually solving the problem

Bonding doesn't have to be a forced thing. If I recall correctly there used to be an incentive program where the government would match student loan payments for medical graduates who went on to work in rural areas. In Australia, they even have to go so far as provide free accomodation to regional medical professionals!

Incentive is not bonding.

Look at "solution is to create an employment situation where they want to stay" again.

johno1234

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#3090389 15-Jun-2023 16:10

sir1963:

johno1234:

It would be even better if they introduced a bonding system. Too many head overseas after being trained at great expense.

Ahh...we are a free democracy. People are allowed to leave NZ.
We have people with all sorts of qualifications who head overseas, particularly if they are doing post graduate studies
Perhaps the better solution is to create an employment situation where they want to stay

8% of our NZ registered nurses now work in Australia.

Trapping people here in NZ is not actually solving the problem

Bonding tuition is not coercive and completely optional. It simply means that student debt from tuition fees can be incrementally waived for each year that the graduate practices in New Zealand. If they want to take off overseas right away they still can. But they will be liable for their entire student debt.

GV27

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#3090568 16-Jun-2023 06:45

johno1234:

Bonding tuition is not coercive and completely optional. It simply means that student debt from tuition fees can be incrementally waived for each year that the graduate practices in New Zealand. If they want to take off overseas right away they still can. But they will be liable for their entire student debt.

The pay differential alone probably makes it worth it. It used to be that you traded that off against lifestyle in NZ, and things like food were cheaper. Now we have none of those three things in our favour.

sir1963

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#3090570 16-Jun-2023 07:08

johno1234:

Bonding tuition is not coercive and completely optional. It simply means that student debt from tuition fees can be incrementally waived for each year that the graduate practices in New Zealand. If they want to take off overseas right away they still can. But they will be liable for their entire student debt.

THAT is not bonding.

Bonding would be if you do a medical degree you are obligated to work x number of years in NZ, zero choice.

What you are talking about is an employment incentive. Not the same thing.

johno1234

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#3090592 16-Jun-2023 08:32

sir1963:

johno1234:

Bonding tuition is not coercive and completely optional. It simply means that student debt from tuition fees can be incrementally waived for each year that the graduate practices in New Zealand. If they want to take off overseas right away they still can. But they will be liable for their entire student debt.

THAT is not bonding.

Bonding would be if you do a medical degree you are obligated to work x number of years in NZ, zero choice.

What you are talking about is an employment incentive. Not the same thing.

Maybe you are getting way more strict on semantics than I am. It is not "zero choice" as the bonding agreement is not mandatory. This is commonly referred to as bonding in NZ.

What is a bonding agreement?

A bonding agreement is a benefit given to an employee where you agree to pay for some or all of the cost of further training in exchange for your employee agreeing to stay under your employment for a period of time; this is usually around one to two years after the training is complete. The result is an upskilled employee who has better qualifications and future employment prospects, and your business has the benefit of a more valuable employee who usually will stay for the period of the bonding agreement.

These arrangements can be recorded in the original employment agreement or in a subsequent document both the employer and employee sign which records the bonding agreement as a formal variation to the employment agreement that is already in place.

https://www.connectlegal.co.nz/bonding-agreements/#:~:text=A%20bonding%20agreement%20is%20a,after%20the%20training%20is%20complete.

This is what I was talking about and it actually does exist in medicine in NZ, but restricted to specific regions, whereas there is a shortage of GPs everywhere in NZ now:

https://www.tewhatuora.govt.nz/whats-happening/what-to-expect/for-the-health-workforce/voluntary-bonding-scheme/voluntary-bonding-scheme/

Definition of bonding

Registrants accepted on to the Scheme are not required to sign an agreement in advance. Those who register and are accepted to the scheme and who work in an eligible hard-to-staff community, specialty or profession and abide by the Terms and Conditions of the intake year can apply for payments after three, four and five years.

...

Leaving the scheme before five years are up

You can leave the scheme before the five years are up, but the minimum bonded term to be eligible for any payment is three years. Your involvement is up to you. Should you decide to leave get in touch at vbs@health.govt.nz.

GV27

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#3090600 16-Jun-2023 08:47

Still reckon the key will be to create a healthcare industry that doesn't suffer from chronic understaffing and an inability to deliver actual outcomes for patients.

You might find doctors genuinely enjoy being at work if you stop making it an awful place to be.

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sen8or

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#3090672 16-Jun-2023 11:18

Healthcare, like education seems to be one of those places that are perpetually unhappy. I can't remember a period where there wasn't someone bleating about pay and/or working conditions from within the sector, and regardless of which colour Government was in power at the time, they weren't doing enough. Is this just another example of Govt run departments simply being incapable of delivering outcomes efficiently as they are tied down in bureaucracy?

sir1963

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#3090675 16-Jun-2023 11:21

sen8or:

Healthcare, like education seems to be one of those places that are perpetually unhappy. I can't remember a period where there wasn't someone bleating about pay and/or working conditions from within the sector, and regardless of which colour Government was in power at the time, they weren't doing enough. Is this just another example of Govt run departments simply being incapable of delivering outcomes efficiently as they are tied down in bureaucracy?

Staff are voting with their wallets and are moving to Australia or simply quitting the industry.

tdgeek

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#3090683 16-Jun-2023 11:39

sen8or:

Healthcare, like education seems to be one of those places that are perpetually unhappy. I can't remember a period where there wasn't someone bleating about pay and/or working conditions from within the sector, and regardless of which colour Government was in power at the time, they weren't doing enough. Is this just another example of Govt run departments simply being incapable of delivering outcomes efficiently as they are tied down in bureaucracy?

IMO there is not the funds available to fully rework any of these sectors. In fact if you fully reworked one of them, the rest get left untouched for another decade and more

What's the typical budget surplus? 3 Bill? Cant do much with that

Now, if you look at all the past Govts you could say these ones were good these others not so much, but that all of them have let these sectors down, tells me that its not due to choice, its due to $. And to add insult to inguiry, the news is all about tax cuts, tax thresholds etc which will reduce the available funds (no, i'm not bagging tax cuts etc)

johno1234

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#3090684 16-Jun-2023 11:44

There would be literally $billions available to improve the lot of employees in the public healthcare and education sector if these funds hadn't been thrown on the restructure bonfires at Te Pukenga and Te Whatu Ora.

Kyanar

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#3090695 16-Jun-2023 12:06

sir1963:

Staff are voting with their wallets and are moving to Australia or simply quitting the industry.

The grass isn't always greener, despite what SA Health would have disillusioned NHS workers believe with their giant billboards in the UK across the road from striking workers.

GV27

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#3090703 16-Jun-2023 12:26

Kyanar:

The grass isn't always greener, despite what SA Health would have disillusioned NHS workers believe with their giant billboards in the UK across the road from striking workers.

It doesn't have to the Amazon rainforest to be greener that our unwinding health service can offer here.

GV27

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#3090705 16-Jun-2023 12:29

johno1234:

There would be literally $billions available to improve the lot of employees in the public healthcare and education sector if these funds hadn't been thrown on the restructure bonfires at Te Pukenga and Te Whatu Ora.

Agreed. There's never going to be enough funds if you insist on pissing it away with no real care or regard to the actual outcomes you're trying to achieve. You could collect 100% of people's incomes and still have nothing to show for it.

When you reach a certain % of people's incomes in tax they simply run out of money to live, and I would wager that given we have exploding mortgage and food costs, we're getting pretty close to that number.

sen8or

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#3090736 16-Jun-2023 13:45

When you look at Govt revenues over the last 10 years -

Govt Revenues

Its clearly not from a lack of not enough money coming in, approx an additional $30bio available to them from 2017 to now and they are expecting it to grow significantly -

Forecast

Careful management of $ is required, not achievements measured simply by the $ invested

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