NZ 2023 Election Thread

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#3148065 16-Oct-2023 12:29

SaltyNZ:
gzt: Can you point to anything substantiating this view?
I wasn't a delegate at that particular AGM, but that is correct.

I'm interested to know more about that. My understanding at the time from media reports was the challenge was climate focused which is not really a left or right issue if the science is taken seriously. Politics may be another matter of course.

ezbee

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#3148117 16-Oct-2023 12:49

Todd Muller and National Green co-operation.
May not have reflected core National values, and ACT Libertarians are more, let market work it out.
I expect that Todd Muller paid for that cross party effort, as other forces in National made his position untenable.
Having been used to managing less internally fractious teams. Judith, we have a bigger common goal :-)

I see Elon Musk likes National, ACT, but may not understand the subsidy is going?
Yeh with twitter the 'Christchurch call' initiatives would now be irritating.

Elon Musk congratulates National’s Christopher Luxon on election win
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/elon-musk-congratulates-nationals-christopher-luxon-on-election-win/WM5FFYGQTZCSJPWKIYNOTXLRQ4/

""
“Congratulations and thank goodness!” Musk wrote on X (formerly Twitter) in response to a post by Luxon.
""

Inflation...
This will be interesting, as usual move would be to increase interest rates faster to take money out of the economy.

This can also help to bring money into the economy chasing the interest rate from outside pushing up your currency.
Taking wraps of overseas buying of housing also helps push up the currency, but pushes up house and land prices.
Then back to strong overseas student house buying on top of that.
Industry too if this also spills over into increased foreign buying of commercial property, and rental increases.
So it not all upside.
Having had a lot to do with manufacturers and exporters this is tough on them who will be enjoying a lower exchange rate.

SaltyNZ

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#3148119 16-Oct-2023 12:55

gzt:
I'm interested to know more about that. My understanding at the time from media reports was the challenge was climate focused which is not really a left or right issue if the science is taken seriously. Politics may be another matter of course.

Technically, yes, but the particular members involved were at the far-left/activist end of the spectrum. The kind of people who would prefer to scream from the sidelines and achieve nothing because the idea of compromise is untenable. The Venn diagram between the far-left activists and the return to pre-industrial revolution technology activists is practically a circle. Whereas the majority of the party certainly wanted more, but recognised that refusing to compromise even the tiniest bit on your principles might feel really righteous but the screaming from the sidelines ultimately achieves nothing.

So - enough of them decided to vote to reopen nominations because they were angry that the party had not already ended the threat of climate change, and also capitalism.

If you want to change the system you have to convince the people who have their hands on the levers of power. That doesn't just mean senior Labour ministers. It also means representatives from industry and agriculture. Those kind of people will never listen to tree hugging unshowered vegan hippies who will cheerfully tell you that you are a murderer to your face because you sometimes like to eat a hamburger. Neither would I, to be honest. But they will listen to someone like James Shaw, because he can meet them where they are.

The Green party did not achieve everything it wanted to. But it got a hell of a lot more through than it would have otherwise - the clean car scheme (which is now to get the chop, because National's only ideas are to undo everything that Labour did), the zero carbon act etc. This is all down to the ability to bring people along on the journey. The faction that voted against Shaw refuse to understand that.

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sen8or

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#3148127 16-Oct-2023 13:32

Winston for speaker of the House?

SaltyNZ

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#3148129 16-Oct-2023 13:34

sen8or:

Winston for speaker of the House?

He already said no - he's not falling for that.

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#3148131 16-Oct-2023 13:45

Handsomedan:

That is the concern I have - I don't like Winston the man (I have come across him personally and found him to be a loathsome individual), but I don't mind Winston the statesman. BUT - and that's deliberately capitalised - he is likely to make sure things are held up or cause issues, simply because he and Seymour can't and won't get on.

Seymour is just as stubborn, but is in a slightly stronger position (at least for now) due to the fact that his party has more seats and therefore a stronger seat at the table with National.

I'd like to see Winnie retire, then NZF join the coalition and there be a slightly more harmonious and stronger three-party government for balance.

I'd say Winston still has a pretty strong negotiating hand regardless.

Doesn't matter what National and ACT agree between themselves, if they need NZF votes for a majority then Winston has full veto power.

Plus he's always got the threat of sitting on the crossbenches and just voting down anything he doesn't like, including budgets.

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sir1963

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#3148132 16-Oct-2023 13:47

SaltyNZ:

gzt:
I'm interested to know more about that. My understanding at the time from media reports was the challenge was climate focused which is not really a left or right issue if the science is taken seriously. Politics may be another matter of course.

The Green party did not achieve everything it wanted to. But it got a hell of a lot more through than it would have otherwise - the clean car scheme (which is now to get the chop, because National's only ideas are to undo everything that Labour did), the zero carbon act etc. This is all down to the ability to bring people along on the journey. The faction that voted against Shaw refuse to understand that.

Giving a large cash back on an expensive vehicle is not that productive. These people can already afford the vehicle.

Better to use that money to enforce the major polluters to comply.

Prevention is cheaper than cure...

sir1963

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#3148134 16-Oct-2023 13:48

evilengineer:

I'd say Winston still has a pretty strong negotiating hand regardless.

Doesn't matter what National and ACT agree between themselves, if they need NZF votes for a majority then Winston has full veto power.

Plus he's always got the threat of sitting on the crossbenches and just voting down anything he doesn't like, including budgets.

And risk another election ?

I think the minor parties would suffer the most in that scenario.

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#3148136 16-Oct-2023 14:03

Plus that would also give the freedom nutcases a chance to up their game and try again (very quickly) to get into government.

sir1963

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#3148137 16-Oct-2023 14:05

quickymart:

Plus that would also give the freedom nutcases a chance to up their game and try again (very quickly) to get into government.

Just need to get those 2 million voters to actually vote... And who knows maybe next time she will forget to enter anyone into electorates...

quickymart

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#3148141 16-Oct-2023 14:13

What a shambles eh for their "movement". Saw this image on one of the FB groups re the freedom nutters and thought it was quite appropriate:

I wonder if they've received the message? ie, the majority of the population are not on your side???

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invisibleman18

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#3148144 16-Oct-2023 14:28

sir1963:

Giving a large cash back on an expensive vehicle is not that productive. These people can already afford the vehicle.

Better to use that money to enforce the major polluters to comply.

Prevention is cheaper than cure...

Going off topic but on the clean car discount I wonder if it could have been targeted with a purchase price or income cap, similar to how the first home buyer schemes are rather than being universal. So that it was aimed at people buying lower end EVs and possibly stretching themselves by taking on debt to do it. Those are probably the people who need it to be able to make the purchase. Is it the best use of taxpayer money to be giving a subsidy to, for instance, corporate CEOs, surgeons or high court judges (or someone like Luxon as has been publicised) making their annual purchase of the latest $100K Tesla model? That person likely doesn't need a taxpayer discount to be able to buy the vehicle.

ezbee

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#3148150 16-Oct-2023 14:34

Am I mistaken,
Hybrids and Plug ins , let alone Leafs second hand from Japan.
These more affordable getting benefit from clean car discount?

Its really the core of the 'new to NZ' car market?

michaelmurfy

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#3148163 16-Oct-2023 14:50

sir1963: Giving a large cash back on an expensive vehicle is not that productive. These people can already afford the vehicle.

Better to use that money to enforce the major polluters to comply.

Prevention is cheaper than cure...

Damn it. For this whole thread I have been following but never actually posting. Congrats, you're getting me to post.

It has been proven elsewhere in the world that giving incentives on clean vehicles promotes uptake which is good also for later on with the second hand market. I'm a Tesla owner since early last year but I did not get any rebate at all since I went with the Long Range model ($86k at the time of purchase) - a model that was above the threshold. I know many people who have gotten into an EV thanks to this rebate and it isn't just "rich Tesla owners" (like Luxon's "wife") but instead it has been used by many from buying a Nissan Leaf, to a cheaper EV like a BYD Atto 3 or a MG. But the more that enter NZ the more that potentially end up on the second hand market thus making their way to the average folk who otherwise can't afford to buy new.

Prevention - I would agree charging a tax on dirty vehicles was a darn good start here and I seriously wish that would continue. I hate seeing those fully spotless $95,000 Ford Ranger Raptors being used for school dropoffs. If those people have got $95,000 to burn on a vehicle like this then they've got money to burn for tax along with the fuel to run it. I know many, many people who I consider to be good friends of mine who have new utes but bought based on their needs - not going overboard, while still getting something that suits them well and guess what? They didn't go on about the clean car tax they had to pay, this is part of the cost and they fully understood why.

I fully agree on top of this enforcing major polluters to comply or even assisting them to switch from coal to electric boilers for example but the point I'm making here is there was a start here that is about to get fully undone.

Climate change policies are a huge aspect to both myself and my wife and was in this election too - I've also got a niece who is going to be bought up in a world fueled by greed and that is worrying. This isn't a climate change thread, this is still political, I'm keeping this political but seriously to those who think removing anything related to climate change to fund a small tax kickback is a good thing really needs to take a look at themselves.

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sir1963

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#3148169 16-Oct-2023 15:08

Everyone I know with an EV (from Nissan Leaf to Tesla and above) are all on salaries of $150k plus.

I bought my new Suzuki almost 7 years ago on the basis that when I retire (another 5 years ) the battery life would be improved, the costs would come down, my need to drive longer distances gone, the charging stations common, and my need to tow a trailer gone.

The rebate will have no impact on my decision

Some I know going for a hybrid are doing so because of the cost of petrol, the rebate is nice but not the motivation.

Another interesting outcome of EVs is their weight and most parking buildings will need significant strengthening or reduced capacity .

But for 80% of my day to day going to work/home I use public transport.

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