Moment of Truth?

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Ultimate Geek
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#1129656 16-Sep-2014 09:29

freitasm:
johnr: I don't care if they see what I do online I have nothing to hide so have nothing to worry about

The "I have done nothing wrong, so have nothing to hide" argument is a fallacy.

At some moment situations change and anything and everything collected about someone can be used - for good or evil.

There is something relevant in that statement tho'. People are making a big deal about information they have freely given to Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, Facebook, and Apple. It's hypocritical complaining about the idea of opening a gate in NZ , when you've voluntarily opened it to US corporations and given them everything including your bank statements and telephone bills.

YadaMe

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Master Geek
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#1129677 16-Sep-2014 10:10

Item:
johnr:

I don't care if they see what I do online I have nothing to hide so have nothing to worry about

The whole "nothing to hide, nothing to worry about" retort misses the point so spectacularly...

1) What about if your private information and communications was shared with your health insurers or the IRD or even advertisers without your consent or ability to contextualise it? Information about you gathered without your acceptance and knowledge is out of your control. What if a casual conversation or joke between friends put you on a watch list or no-fly list?

2) It has been proven again and again that those who collect this information are frequently unable to protect it. Do you want personal communications becoming public through leaks or hacks.

3) To take the argument to the nth degree - by your assertion "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" you would surely have no problem with the government or police accessing and recording footage from your laptop or smartphone corner or even putting cameras or microphones in your home in order to prevent crime, terrorism or sedition as you have "nothing to hide". If not, why? Where do you draw the line? Where does it end?

It's all for The Greater Good no?

Going to the nth +1 degree all these people will allow the police and any government department search there house at anytime? After all they have nothing to hide. Maybe police should randomly stop cars and search them without any justification other than "looking for terrorists".
Where do these "I have nothing to hide" draw the line? John Key last election went to extreme lengths to make sure his conversation with John Banks was never made public.
The more information there is the more likely it is to be abused for either entertainment, political / personal gain.

Zippity

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Ultimate Geek
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#1129691 16-Sep-2014 10:37

freitasm:
Zippity: So we are expected to believe two "pussies" who are in hiding and don't have the balls to front up to put their cases?

Yeah Right!!!!

You believe they'd have a fair public trial?

You believe they won't?

MikeB4

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#1129724 16-Sep-2014 10:51

BarTender:
KiwiNZ:
freitasm:
johnr: I don't care if they see what I do online I have nothing to hide so have nothing to worry about

The "I have done nothing wrong, so have nothing to hide" argument is a fallacy.

At some moment situations change and anything and everything collected about someone can be used - for good or evil.

This is NZ, only need to worry if it concerns, Rugby, Gumboots, Meat pies or Tui.

If only thaf were true. The whole point of the argument is that the spying is for commercial and political purposes.

Benjamin Franklin has it right you know.

Anything we do be it commercial or military is available via The Google Spy Agency.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

BarTender

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#1129728 16-Sep-2014 10:54

Glassboy:
freitasm:
johnr: I don't care if they see what I do online I have nothing to hide so have nothing to worry about

The "I have done nothing wrong, so have nothing to hide" argument is a fallacy.

At some moment situations change and anything and everything collected about someone can be used - for good or evil.

There is something relevant in that statement tho'. People are making a big deal about information they have freely given to Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, Facebook, and Apple. It's hypocritical complaining about the idea of opening a gate in NZ , when you've voluntarily opened it to US corporations and given them everything including your bank statements and telephone bills.

The problem with your argument is people choose to give their information to Google/MS et al.

With the government / NSA / GSCB. You firstly have / had no knowledge if you are handing over the information and secondly there is no way you can choose not to use the GCSB/NSA.

So to compare a private company you have chosen to use vs a government collecting all the metadata beggars belief IMHO.

Item

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#1129733 16-Sep-2014 10:58

"Who watches the watchmen" maybe trite, but it has never been more relevant.

It may be hopelessly idealistic, but remember that those same people who pursue and argue for the total visibility of every aspect of our electronic and private communications, who seek to acquire every last detail about us and who want to control our movements and activities are in our employ and are here to serve us and they don't always know best or act in our best interests.

Make them accountable, make them transparent.

Let us not forget the outrageous hypocrisy shown by those in power across the world when their phone-calls are tapped, when their dirty laundry is aired and when they cry out "respect my privacy" in response to their public exposure.

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Geektastic

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#1129739 16-Sep-2014 11:07

Personally I would be delighted to return to the tech world of 1980 with no mobile phones etc etc.

However that genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

My thoughts are commit nothing to 'online' you are not happy for anyone to see. Accept it may well be viewed whether it is by the NSA or a pimply youth surrounded by dried tissues in his mum's basement in the Ukraine...

Terrorists will probably revert to using a pen and paper and a one time code system like the CIA in Cold War Russia - and that would be harder to break. Spies now can be fat and lazy and sit in air-conditioned buildings. No more dead drops in Gorky Park or sidling up to a stranger with a briefcase and saying "The geese have flown south early this winter, comrade."

frankv

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#1129749 16-Sep-2014 11:23

Item: "Who watches the watchmen" maybe trite, but it has never been more relevant.

It may be hopelessly idealistic, but remember that those same people who pursue and argue for the total visibility of every aspect of our electronic and private communications, who seek to acquire every last detail about us and who want to control our movements and activities ...

Let's also not forget that John Key, the GCSB, etc argues for (and has) exactly the opposite when it comes to *their* activities.

No visibility of their activities == no control over them.

shk292

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#1129765 16-Sep-2014 11:39

Back to the thread title, it turns out that this is an accurate description, with the "truth" being that the large German is wearing the emperor's new clothes (isn't that an unpleasant image) and even having sponsored every exiled traitor and fellow criminal he can find, all he can come up with is stolen material, lies and innuendo. Time to extradite his not inconsiderable butt to the USA I think

BarTender

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#1129767 16-Sep-2014 11:41

Geektastic: Personally I would be delighted to return to the tech world of 19804 with no mobile phones etc etc.

However that genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

My thoughts are commit nothing to 'online' you are not happy for anyone to see. Accept it may well be viewed whether it is by the NSA or a pimply youth surrounded by dried tissues in his mum's basement in the Ukraine...

Terrorists will probably revert to using a pen and paper and a one time code system like the CIA in Cold War Russia - and that would be harder to break. Spies now can be fat and lazy and sit in air-conditioned buildings. No more dead drops in Gorky Park or sidling up to a stranger with a briefcase and saying "The geese have flown south early this winter, comrade."

Seems like 1984 has been taken as an instruction manual hasn't it.

MikeB4

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#1129775 16-Sep-2014 11:54

BarTender:
Geektastic: Personally I would be delighted to return to the tech world of 19804 with no mobile phones etc etc.

However that genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

My thoughts are commit nothing to 'online' you are not happy for anyone to see. Accept it may well be viewed whether it is by the NSA or a pimply youth surrounded by dried tissues in his mum's basement in the Ukraine...

Terrorists will probably revert to using a pen and paper and a one time code system like the CIA in Cold War Russia - and that would be harder to break. Spies now can be fat and lazy and sit in air-conditioned buildings. No more dead drops in Gorky Park or sidling up to a stranger with a briefcase and saying "The geese have flown south early this winter, comrade."

Seems like 1984 has been taken as an instruction manual hasn't it.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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Glassboy

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Ultimate Geek
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#1129799 16-Sep-2014 12:09

BarTender:
Glassboy:
freitasm:
johnr: I don't care if they see what I do online I have nothing to hide so have nothing to worry about

The "I have done nothing wrong, so have nothing to hide" argument is a fallacy.

At some moment situations change and anything and everything collected about someone can be used - for good or evil.

There is something relevant in that statement tho'. People are making a big deal about information they have freely given to Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, Facebook, and Apple. It's hypocritical complaining about the idea of opening a gate in NZ , when you've voluntarily opened it to US corporations and given them everything including your bank statements and telephone bills.

The problem with your argument is people choose to give their information to Google/MS et al.

With the government / NSA / GSCB. You firstly have / had no knowledge if you are handing over the information and secondly there is no way you can choose not to use the GCSB/NSA.

So to compare a private company you have chosen to use vs a government collecting all the metadata beggars belief IMHO.

People don't choose, they just don't think about it.

Personally I think your position and arguments are the height of dishonesty and if you were a decent person you'd come out and tell us which Political Party you're a shill for.

Demeter

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#1129806 16-Sep-2014 12:13

You know, besides all the other stuff in this thread I really don't care to get into, CAN WE STOP WITH THE FAT SHAMING PLEASE?

Thanks.

Talkiet

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#1129807 16-Sep-2014 12:14

Glassboy: ...and if you were a decent person you'd come out and tell us which Political Party you're a shill for.

It's possible to have opinions about political issues, and even speak strongly about those opinions without being a shill for a particular political party.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shill

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Glassboy

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Ultimate Geek
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#1129810 16-Sep-2014 12:20

Talkiet:
Glassboy: ...and if you were a decent person you'd come out and tell us which Political Party you're a shill for.

It's possible to have opinions about political issues, and even speak strongly about those opinions without being a shill for a particular political party.

Of course it is, and if I thought [s]he was being honest I would accept that it was just personal opinion.

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