Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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Rikkitic

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#1651125 14-Oct-2016 15:12

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networkn:

It worries me somewhat that an accuser is given more "weight" as the person more likely to be telling the truth, than the person being accused.

We don't live in a perfect world. If we did, there would be no people like Trump saying the things he has. Since we don't live in a perfect world, people look at Trump's record and say he probably did what he is accused of. There is no proof of that, and he may well be innocent, but since he acts like a creep and a jerk there is no strong motivation to give him the benefit of the doubt. So life is unfair. What else is new?

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networkn

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#1651134 14-Oct-2016 15:15

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Rikkitic:

networkn:

It worries me somewhat that an accuser is given more "weight" as the person more likely to be telling the truth, than the person being accused.

We don't live in a perfect world. If we did, there would be no people like Trump saying the things he has. Since we don't live in a perfect world, people look at Trump's record and say he probably did what he is accused of. There is no proof of that, and he may well be innocent, but since he acts like a creep and a jerk there is no strong motivation to give him the benefit of the doubt. So life is unfair. What else is new?

Stakes are slightly higher than usual, don't you think?

throbb

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#1651137 14-Oct-2016 15:30

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networkn:

frankv:

Not sure exactly where you want me to put the world "ALLEGEDLY". Presumably you're suggesting that there may be nothing more than allegations to the "sexual assaults". You may be right, but I'm going to invoke Occam's Razor.

Which is more likely...

That several women *were* assaulted by Trump over the years (and therefore the rest of my statement makes sense), or
That these women have chosen to accuse Trump baselessly, presumably in return for some reward. These women would have to be lunatic to do that, but maybe they are, or maybe they've been offered *huge* bribes. And presumably the Democrats are behind this, to undermine Trump's Presidency bid. Well, they would have to be lunatics too... (a) Trump was 11 points behind (i.e. losing hugely), so there's no point, and (b) when the truth inevitably surfaced, they'd lose hugely.

In fact, what about putting odds on it... I have a dollar that says that at least one of these women was sexually assaulted by Trump. What will you put up against that? A dollar? $10? $100? 10 cents?

You put ALLEGEDLY in front of every accusation, because until he is proven guilty, these are simply accusations. (and it's entirely possible to do this and not support Trump, or fail to support the accuser) You'll notice the press is careful to do this prior to a conviction because without it, you are suggesting fact when there are no facts in evidence.

I've stated my concerns with these allegations, and I hope for everyone's sakes, they are actually true in all honesty. I am wondering how it's possible to sexually assault someone on an Aeroplane though, whilst seated, without there being witnesses.

I am not sure why you'd feel compelled to gamble on such a thing. I am not stating there isn't truth to these claims, I am saying the timing and nature of these doesn't seem entirely "right" to me, and maybe as more "facts" come to light that may change. I am not betting against you

for the other side of the outcome because I have no vested interest in that side. I am simply raising some concerns. I don't feel satisfied to this moment that the explanations provided here add up to the complete truth.

It worries me somewhat that an accuser is given more "weight" as the person more likely to be telling the truth, than the person being accused.

I don't think an accuser is given more "weight" but when there are multiple accusers that does give it more "weight"

tdgeek

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#1651139 14-Oct-2016 15:50

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throbb:

I don't think an accuser is given more "weight" but when there are multiple accusers that does give it more "weight"

And when the accusee gives first hand evidence himself

frankv

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#1651173 14-Oct-2016 16:40

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networkn:

frankv:

Not sure exactly where you want me to put the world "ALLEGEDLY". Presumably you're suggesting that there may be nothing more than allegations to the "sexual assaults". You may be right, but I'm going to invoke Occam's Razor.

Which is more likely...

That several women *were* assaulted by Trump over the years (and therefore the rest of my statement makes sense), or
That these women have chosen to accuse Trump baselessly, presumably in return for some reward. These women would have to be lunatic to do that, but maybe they are, or maybe they've been offered *huge* bribes. And presumably the Democrats are behind this, to undermine Trump's Presidency bid. Well, they would have to be lunatics too... (a) Trump was 11 points behind (i.e. losing hugely), so there's no point, and (b) when the truth inevitably surfaced, they'd lose hugely.

In fact, what about putting odds on it... I have a dollar that says that at least one of these women was sexually assaulted by Trump. What will you put up against that? A dollar? $10? $100? 10 cents?

You put ALLEGEDLY in front of every accusation, because until he is proven guilty, these are simply accusations.

Yeah, you're right.... we ought to give Trump the benefit of the doubt.

I've stated my concerns with these allegations, and I hope for everyone's sakes, they are actually true in all honesty. I am wondering how it's possible to sexually assault someone on an Aeroplane though, whilst seated, without there being witnesses.

According to http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/woman-says-she-was-groped-by-trump-on-plane-it-was-an-assault-w444700 there were 4 people who "corroborated her story". I guess they weren't eye-witnesses or the article would have said that. Maybe the eye-witnesses turned a blind eye?

I am not sure why you'd feel compelled to gamble on such a thing. I am not stating there isn't truth to these claims, I am saying the timing and nature of these doesn't seem entirely "right" to me, and maybe as more "facts" come to light that may change. I am not betting against you

It's perfectly OK that you don't want to gamble. I don't feel compelled to gamble. But I believe that "Only a real risk tests the reality of a belief." So asking someone to bet on something (i.e. risk their money) is a way to measure how sincerely they believe some particular statement.

As regards the timing: a Jane Doe filed charges against Trump in *July* for statutory rape, which has been pretty much roundly ignored.

After Trump mounted his campaign for the White House, details emerged of the 1997 complaint, in which Harth accused him of “attempted ‘rape’”. This related to 1993, BTW.

http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/now/politics/215671-donald-trump-rape-timeline was published July 2015.

Batman

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#1651179 14-Oct-2016 16:51

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Jeeves:

SaltyNZ:

And for that he got a dawn raid with military-armed police in helicopters. We don't usually treat murderers or rapists with that level of aggression.

A lot of people have said the raid was over the top. I reckon if you take a step back and think about it, it wasn't completely excessive.

(I'm referring to the raid itself, not the reason for it, the legality of the warrant, or the crap that has ensued since).

It was known that there were firearms in the property - so AOS and arming of officers was necessary. No one would dispute that.

The raid was to gather evidence such as computers etc. The police have to apprehend people in the building as quickly as possible to reduce the risk of disposal or destruction of evidence.

The shortest driveway to the property (Out of 3 entrances) is 300 meters long, and has a manned security entrance. If the police only approached by vehicle or foot - his security guards and systems would have alerted him well in advance. If you watch the raid video - the police first sent an old friendly looking Sergeant or Inspector up to the gate first to get the guards attention without raising any alarms, then a few seconds later the heavies come in. That took care of the entrance guard, but would have still allowed plenty of time while they opened the gate and drove up the driveway for the security systems and other roaming guards to alert the occupants.... so the next best thing?

Helicopters! The helicopter would have practically landed by the time anyone knew it was there due the frequency of helicopters in that area - and it landed only a few meters from the entrance to the house.

You say we don't treat rapists and murders with that level of aggression. If they lived in a massive sprawling mansion and were in possession of evidence that could contribute to their case that they could destroy given enough time - then yes, they would receive the same amount of attention. Police do aggressive raids every day - but it's not everyday they have to deal with the size and sophistication that DC had.

As I said, I'm strictly referring to the logistics of the raid itself, not all the other crap that surrounded it.

I don't know what he's charged with but copyright infringement usually results in a lawyer's letter.

networkn

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#1651217 14-Oct-2016 17:18

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throbb:

I don't think an accuser is given more "weight" but when there are multiple accusers that does give it more "weight"

I can't agree. When a person makes an accusation of sexual misconduct, it's automatically assumed this person is telling the truth. I mean.. Why would they lie?

This is ESPECIALLY true if it's a woman accusing a man. The accuser is immediately labelled the "victim" and the accused is viewed poorly pretty much instantly.

I do however, agree, that when multiple people come forward it adds weight.

Elpie

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#1651230 14-Oct-2016 17:58

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networkn:

I am wondering how it's possible to sexually assault someone on an Aeroplane though, whilst seated, without there being witnesses.

Four people corroborated the story. As to how it's possible, that's easy. Most people mind their own business and aren't that observant of other people's activities on planes unless it directly impacts on their own comfort. I've seen people making out on planes, in seats. Couldn't tell you when or even what flights. Nor could I tell you whether it was consensual or assault. I'm pretty sure most of us that fly frequently could say the same.

networkn:

I am not stating there isn't truth to these claims, I am saying the timing and nature of these doesn't seem entirely "right" to me, and maybe as more "facts" come to light that may change.

The timing seems spot-on to me. Ask a few more women what they think about the timing. IF the women were genuinely assaulted then Trumps claims that he is talk but not action in regards to abusing women would very likely trigger anger and outrage. Coincidentally to this, newspaper interest in Trumps so-called "locker room" chat (and subsequent statements during the debate) was high enough that the women were likely to get assurances of protection against law suits if they spoke to the papers. I don't know if they got legal protection in exchange for talking to the media but if I was one of those women I would have sought that!

Sadly, I think these issues outrage those that don't want Trump to be President and make no difference to his supporters.

Fred99

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#1651240 14-Oct-2016 18:26

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For goodness sake. Trump BOASTED about sexually assaulting women. And here some of you are debating about whether it's "fair" or not to listen to women who claim to have been sexually assaulted by the filthy lying POS.

Handle9

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#1651244 14-Oct-2016 18:33

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networkn:

Rikkitic:

networkn:

It worries me somewhat that an accuser is given more "weight" as the person more likely to be telling the truth, than the person being accused.

We don't live in a perfect world. If we did, there would be no people like Trump saying the things he has. Since we don't live in a perfect world, people look at Trump's record and say he probably did what he is accused of. There is no proof of that, and he may well be innocent, but since he acts like a creep and a jerk there is no strong motivation to give him the benefit of the doubt. So life is unfair. What else is new?

Stakes are slightly higher than usual, don't you think?

Absolutely. You have Russian hackers working to get a racist, misogynistic despotic candidate elected. That candidate was loosing by a fairly comprehensive margin before these tapes came out, largely because of his lies and inability to control himself. I think the stakes couldn't be higher.

He knew what he was getting himself in for and he started down this road with his accusations of Bill Clinton. I find it hard to get outraged about.

Elpie

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#1651248 14-Oct-2016 18:36

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Fred99:

For goodness sake. Trump BOASTED about sexually assaulting women. And here some of you are debating about whether it's "fair" or not to listen to women who claim to have been sexually assaulted by the filthy lying POS.

The guy's a misogynistic, bullying, abusive, liar and that's been proven already. I doubt that any of the current news will make the slightest difference to his supporters.

Pumpedd

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#1651323 14-Oct-2016 21:44

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We must remember that Trump is one of two candidates running for President of the US...theoretically the most powerful position in the world.

As a private individual I dont give a toss as to what he says or does....but when he is running for this high office doesn't there need to be some kind of respect shown for the position?

This farce is dividing populations in a most horrible way...and the more we see of it on our screens the more normal it is beginning to look.

This is one of the saddest sideshows I can ever recall seeing in my lifetime and makes me very concerned for the children who are witnessing it all.

freitasm

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#1651324 14-Oct-2016 21:46

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Pumpedd:

We must remember that Trump is one of two candidates running for President of the US...theoretically the most powerful position in the world.

As a private individual I dont give a toss as to what he says or does....but when he is running for this high office doesn't there need to be some kind of respect shown for the position?

This farce is dividing populations in a most horrible way...and the more we see of it on our screens the more normal it is beginning to look.

This is one of the saddest sideshows I can ever recall seeing in my lifetime and makes me very concerned for the children who are witnessing it all.

You have to show respect for the office sure. But unless he's elected, a candidate is nothing. I was reading how the loser is dropped like a hot potato. There was a case in which the Secret Service didn't even stay around after the losing candidade conceded defeat, and he had to go back home on a friend's car.

In other words, unless people are dumb to elect this person, he's nothing to do with the office.

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networkn

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#1651335 14-Oct-2016 22:19

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Elpie:

Four people corroborated the story. As to how it's possible, that's easy. Most people mind their own business and aren't that observant of other people's activities on planes unless it directly impacts on their own comfort. I've seen people making out on planes, in seats. Couldn't tell you when or even what flights. Nor could I tell you whether it was consensual or assault. I'm pretty sure most of us that fly frequently could say the same.

Well I am not sure what you consider frequently flying, but I've been on at least a few hundred flights, and I can say without doubt I'd have No trouble determining consensual sexual behavior from non-consensual behaviour and I am honestly shocked you can't.

Surely the words NO, stop or other such things would be a dead giveaway.

I wouldn't say I am particularly nosy, but a couple making out on a plane would garner a little attention from me due to the unusual nature of it. If I felt that was unwanted attention, I'd do something about it, at least make an inquiry or offer of assistance.

I guess there are different people in the world, but I'd be genuinely surprised and disappointed if the average person would have trouble determining sexual assault from normal consensual behaviour.

networkn

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#1651336 14-Oct-2016 22:19

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Elpie:

Fred99:

For goodness sake. Trump BOASTED about sexually assaulting women. And here some of you are debating about whether it's "fair" or not to listen to women who claim to have been sexually assaulted by the filthy lying POS.

The guy's a misogynistic, bullying, abusive, liar and that's been proven already. I doubt that any of the current news will make the slightest difference to his supporters.

Given the drop on the polling numbers, that would seem to be incorrect.

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