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289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


Topic # 142738 22-Mar-2014 23:46
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Hi folks. Can someone cast their eyes over this and provide some advice thanks.

Current setup is basically an HDMI Matrix 4x2 switch ( Generic brand ) feeding 2 AVR's - a Denon and a Yamaha. It has 4 HDMI's in and 2 HDMI's out to feed two different devices separate streams. I have it setup like this so I can feed the MySKY, PS3 and BluRay into the livingroom setup or into the cinema setup ( or both at same time)

The Denon feeds the TV in one room ( a 6 year old Bravia KDL 55x4500)  and the Yamaha feeds the projector in the adjacent room.  Into the switch I had MySKy, PS3, Blu Ray and a WDTV Live...

Just replaced the WDTV with an intel i5 NUC.  All working well on the monitor at my desktop PC when I set it up. 

Once connected into my current setup that's where the issues started with the NUC and TV side of the equation.  Black screen when I select NUC as the source through the matrix switch. All other sources work find - Sky, PS3 etc.. 

Some other facts.

1. The switch is of the type when you change input selection between devices, all the signals cut for about 3 seconds while it re-establishes relevant handshakes.
2. The switch won't allow you to select a source unless it detects a signal. So if the PS3 isn't powered on for example I won't be able to switch to that source until I flick it's power switch
3. IF I have the black screen and hard reset the NUC by holding down the power button, then immediately reboot it, the safe mode " your computer didn't shut down properly' start screen appears on the TV and all is well and very usable so it CAN actually handshake.
4. The NUC when plugged directly into the telly via HDMI works fine so it's either the switch or the Denon not liking it.
5. Have tried different cables and different ports on the switch with no change....Pretty sure that that hardware aspect is all good i.e not a faulty cable etc
6. It sometimes works and often doesn't which is making fault finding hard

I did notice that when the screen on the tv is blank and no windows deskop appears there is no onscreen GUI from the Denon AVR - basically the menus I can call up to play around with speaker size, inputs etc. These generally get overlaid on top of the video signal so at first it appeared to me the denon isn't connecting with the telly ??  It does on all the other sources however and the menus pop up when that other source appears on the screen.


The NUC does however appear to work perfectly with the Yamaha Amp and projector which is fed from the 2nd Matrix switch HDMI out. No issues with blank screens etc. It just works everytime I power it up.

From the above, any clues if this is NUC and the Matrix Switch, the switch and the Denon AVR or the Denon and the Sony Bravia TV ?  Given the layout of the kit etc and most wires having been run through and along inside walls it's not the easiest to quickly swap stuff around. I'd have to do a pretty major unplug everything and start again to try a different amp etc.

Thanks for your thoughts. This doesn't seem just related to me having read most of google tonight...

Ged




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76 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1011201 23-Mar-2014 00:26
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Is the Denon firmware up to date?



597 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 132


  Reply # 1011203 23-Mar-2014 00:31
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Have you looked to make sure all the equipment is compatible with each other in terms of HDMI versions?

Have you checked you aren't having issues with HDCP?




Regards
Stefan Andres Charsley

 
 
 
 




289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 1011205 23-Mar-2014 00:41
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Thanks guys.

Denon firmware I'll check tomorrow thanks..  Will check re the HDMI versions of each piece of kit as well

How would I check if its HDCP. The fact that I can get it to display and operate fine but have to undertake a hold the power button down hard reset then flick it back on with the accompanying "windows didn't shut down message"  etc - and all works fine would suggest it's not HDCP but I'm not well versed in this stuff to say that. 



289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 1011231 23-Mar-2014 08:51
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So as a short update.

Plugged NUC directly into the Denon (without firmware update yet)  it works every time.  Boots up and displays on the telly just fine. Just need to choose the source correctly on the  denon AVR. If powersave kicks in, the screen goes black and pressing a key pops it back on etc so they are communicating fine.  So I'm guessing it's between the matrix switch and the NUC or a combination of NUC, Matrix and Denon.  All other sources work fine through the switch and the denon AVR - just not this one...

I'm also wondering if it has something to do with the speed that the NUC boots up and the fact the switch takes a good 3 to 5 seconds to recognise a source is powered on then attempts to undertake handshaking etc.

I might be completely wrong as to how this works but once the switch sees the NUC input has a powered on HDMI connection etc via a blue led lighting up above the source, when I reboot the NUC by hard reset and powering it back on,  the matrix switch, denon and telly all find it immediately as it restarts - generally on the ' you didn't shut down properly screen..how do you wish to start windows' - that's obviously not a long term solution.  

Does the NUC/Windows 7 handshaking only occur during the powering up / startup phase or is it continuous ?  If that could be the issue then I'm thinking about how I could tell it to look for the USB first, give it a couple of seconds to figure out, no drive present then it would flick over to the SSD for booting up. ?

Or am I completely wrong and the handshaking occurs all the time?

Cheers



76 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 1


  Reply # 1011233 23-Mar-2014 08:59
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Didn't you say NUC->Switch->Yahama->Projector is fine?

If that's true the Yamaha is doing something the Denon isn't, which is why Denon firmware perhaps not being as tolerant as the Yahama on the HDCP handshake timings ... 

Often in these things it can be a power-on order too ... try powering on TV first, then Denon, then Switch, then NUC, and then try the other way around (NUC first, TV last)



289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


Reply # 1011237 23-Mar-2014 09:11
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That is correct. Works flawlessly through the switch into the Yamaha and into the projector. No issues.  

 

Will firmware update and report back.  I've tried many different combinations of powering on and off etc.  Am also going to try longer cables, different ports, I have an identical switch in the kids room so will also swap that out etc..

Cheers again.  Talk later 

222 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 41


  Reply # 1011260 23-Mar-2014 10:24
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If you can get hold of a 1x2 HDMI Splitter, this could resolve your issue.....have the HDMI coming from your NUC to the splitter and then HDMI into the switch, it may just be a clock stretching problem and the splitter will fix this issue.

You can pick up 1.4 splitters for $30-40 off Trademe....




"Setting the Standard in Quality and Commitment"



289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 1011262 23-Mar-2014 10:32
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Hi. Firmware updated fine through ethernet. No difference. Dang !

However have noticed the following which may be of help to the more informed.

1) IF i switch to the NUC source on the matrix switch as soon as I power it on, almost pressing both NUC power and source button on the switch simultaneously it works and windows desktop appears on telly. Given it's and SSD fastboot I have about 2 seconds to accomplish this - not wife friendly !    If the switch allowed it ( but it doesn't) I would select the correct input prior to powering on the NUC but the switch won't allow you to select an input until it detects a live HDMI is plugged into it.

2) IF I leave the NUC to boot up and into windows desktop, then change to that source on the matrix switch it's too late. Blank screen.


Also noticed

When 1) works - solid blue lights on the source and the output A to the telly.  

When 2) occurs the switch will keep trying to reset the source every 8 to 9 seconds, i,e blue lights will drop to red on both source and output A, back to blue for a bit then again to red. Keeps doing it. Almost like it's trying to handshake but can't. Also, when it's in this state as soon as I select the 2nd display output via the other AVR and projector blue lights become solid.  Windows desktop appears on the projector but still not on the telly.


Thanks for sticking with me :)  Any more clues or things to try other than tell the wife she should pat her head whilst rubbing her tummy when switching it on...


This is the switch. Originally purchased from rapallo about 2 years ago but identical to this. I recently purchased another from DX for kids rumpus room and it's same packaging, box etc.   I see rapallo are now offering a similar product but now including EDID management etc for a not insignificant price of $299 !!!!

http://dx.com/p/hdmi-1080p-4x2-matrix-power-amplified-switch-and-2-output-splitter-with-remote-control-100-240v-ac-16554#.Uy4Alvm7vDI

Cheers

Ged

750 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 1011265 23-Mar-2014 10:39
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Is the resolution and refresh rate set manually on the AVR, or is it set to Auto?
If EDID isn't getting through the switch, then the AVR may be trying to set the NUC as a standard video source.

You can also try disabling CEC on the AVR, but the NUC won't use CEC, so that is less likely to be conflicting.



289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 1011282 23-Mar-2014 11:45
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Presume it's set to auto as I can't find any opportunity within any of the settings to alter.  Regarding CEC , can't find an option to turn it off either on the AVR or indeed the TV

76 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 1


  Reply # 1011299 23-Mar-2014 12:02
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What model is the Denon? Have you tried firing up the NUC with the Yamaha not plugged into the switch?

750 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 33


  Reply # 1011302 23-Mar-2014 12:03
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gedc: Presume it's set to auto as I can't find any opportunity within any of the settings to alter.  Regarding CEC , can't find an option to turn it off either on the AVR or indeed the TV


A Denon owner will no doubt be able to assist. CEC is the generic term, but a quick google tells me Denon refer to it as 'HDMI Control'.



289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 1011304 23-Mar-2014 12:10
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I'll try powering up without the other amp attached as well cheers. HDMI control on the denon has a couple of settings which appears to allow me to control other HDMI sources from a power on/off and also select the source ..Nothing else to play with unfortunately.

It's a Denon AVR 1713 connected to a Sony KDL 55x4500 which is about 6 years old. I'm wondering if the telly is the weak link here ?

One solution as per a previous post could be to split the NUC signal into two with one going to the switch for distribution to the cinema ( as is currently and we know that works )  and the other going directly to the Denon AVR which seemed to worked prior.

That way I would select the input from the Denon AVR to access the NUC feed directly and it would bypass the switch.


I'm also going to try swapping the amps around so the yamaha feeds the TV and the Denon feeds the cinema...If that still falls over then looks like the telly is the issue as that's the only thing constant - or have I missed something. That'll take some time as its wire central.

Cheers












289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 1011321 23-Mar-2014 12:56
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Last post with an update. If I boot the NUC and miss that 2 -3 second timeslot to also get the matrix switch onto the correct source then I know I will have issues.

If I subsequently restart windows using the start menu it works perfectly the second boot around. It seems the switch has a lag for shuttting down and is looking at the source as it reboots up, handshakes and all is well.  Only issue with this is manually moving the mouse to the start menu etc which is gonna be hard without a 2nd display.

If I can setup a hotkey combination on windows 7 to force a restart. That would be the simplest solution for now..Boot up. Black screen. Hotkey combo and windows restarts and all handshakes completed. 

Just tried on desktop and set CTRL +F1 and it restarted so will port that solution across to check all is well. Messy but it works for now...

 

Cheers

 

Ged



289 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 3


  Reply # 1015436 30-Mar-2014 16:27
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As an update to those interested / also having the same issues in the future. Having played about with every configuration possible and even If I bypass the switch and plug directly into the Denon Amp still the same issue.

IF i miss the bootup phase of the NUC then black screen - the amp, telly and NUC all seem to want to handshake and lots of screen flashing, input appears on TV top corner, disappears, reappears, screen flashes but no windows desktop appears.

IF I put the amp onto the correct channel prior to bootup ( something I couldn't do with the matrix switch) then it's a home run everytime. 

Last thing for me to try is the yamaha amp in place of the denon as the yamaha display nicely all the time on the projector irrespective of the bootup sequence....IF it exhibits the same symptoms when connected to the telly and the Denon works just fine with the projector then I think I've identified the Sony TV as the issue in the chain.

Not a lot I can fix if that is the case I'm assuming.

Ged

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