Height speakers for Atmos etc - recommendations and advice

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jonathan18

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#293012 21-Dec-2021 08:56

I've finally purchased a new HT receiver with Atmos etc, but currently don't have any elevation speakers - hence I'm looking for advice on how I should approach this and recommendations for appropriate types and models.

Currently, I have a 7.1 setup, and my intention had been to go to a 7.1.2 setup through adding a single pair of on-wall or -ceiling height speakers, eg a pair of SVS Prime Elevations. But I'm also really open to other options to get the best result (while installation also being feasible), which could include:

a pair of in-ceiling speakers
two pairs of in-ceiling speakers, ie sacrificing the rears and going for a 5.1.4 setup

The room is 4 x 5.4 x 2.4 m with no ceiling access (it's an external home office/HT), so getting cables across the ceiling (let alone up the wall) could be a real dog, perhaps? (Probably need an installer to do it if I go for in-ceiling speakers.)

Similarly, are there issues with installing in-ceiling speakers without boxing of some kind? I don't need to worry about sound leakage in terms of noise pollution, but if it results in way worse sound... (I can't work out how I'd get any boxing in the ceiling without chopping big holes in the ceiling!)

I have Paradigms for the front three speakers; I've read very mixed advice as to how critical it is to maintain timbre consistency for height speakers, and noting how old my fronts are (probably 20 years?) I'm not even sure how matched current Paradigms would be with these! That said, someone recommended these Paradigm CI Home H65-As in-ceiling speakers for Atmos, I assume partly based on the angled design.

Anyway, any ideas and comments would be appreciated.

danielparker

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#2836233 21-Dec-2021 10:13

What is your new receiver? (I have a Yamaha RX-V1085 And they use front presence speakers)

When I did this about a year ago.. I found a set of similar aged Paradigms off Trade Me for the job.

Changeover

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#2836234 21-Dec-2021 10:15

I have 4 Prime Elevation speakers ( back surrounds and Atmos) and I’m very happy with them. They are a bit pricey but you don’t need to buy any mounting bracket’s.

jonathan18

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#2836265 21-Dec-2021 11:08

danielparker:

What is your new receiver? (I have a Yamaha RX-V1085 And they use front presence speakers)

When I did this about a year ago.. I found a set of similar aged Paradigms off Trade Me for the job.

When I say 'new', it's new to me but s/h - a Marantz SR6012 which I think is a model from about three years ago. I decided to go s/h as the prices of new receivers are a total joke, plus I don't need the latest in terms of 8K, HDMI 2.1 etc.

What model of Paradigms did you buy for height speakers? How do you find they serve this function?

danielparker

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#2836274 21-Dec-2021 11:33

jonathan18:

When I say 'new', it's new to me but s/h - a Marantz SR6012 which I think is a model from about three years ago. I decided to go s/h as the prices of new receivers are a total joke, plus I don't need the latest in terms of 8K, HDMI 2.1 etc.

What model of Paradigms did you buy for height speakers? How do you find they serve this function?

They were Mini Monitor V2's (Paid $279 for the pair)..

Then I took to them with a skill saw.. lol

The wall is 'Fake' and my mains etc are behind the microperf screen.. The front presence speakers were cut in half and the rear portion reattached behind the left one only.. right has a solid wall behind it.. hard to explain, and very off topic.

This is the same room.. from when we purchased the house.. You can see the right wall next to the filing cabinet down the end.. Screen is where that desk is..

They function fine..

Personally I don't think speaker selection for height effects is going to make much difference.. they are not on all of the time.

ShinyChrome

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#2836328 21-Dec-2021 13:23

On/In ceiling > on-wall and 5.1.4 > 7.1.2 in my very limited opinion(although technically the Marantz 6012 can do both and you could even reuse your old AVR as an external amp to do so!).

In your situation, and if you can get over the aesthetics, I would go on-ceiling and use painted cable tubing to hide cables over the walls/roof for ease of install.

TBH, since it will mostly be panning effects, and the AVR/Audyssey will help with the volume level matching, I would go with the cheapest option from a decent brand. The Polk OWM3s are usually recommended as a good budget option in US based forums, if not the prettiest. Noaudiophile did a good writeup on them

jonathan18

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#2836433 21-Dec-2021 16:15

Thanks all for the posts.

Good to know I may not have to spend up large to get ok performance; those Polks are also available in white, which would be far less offensive than having black boxes attached to a white ceiling. Polk's website suggests using an "Omnimount 10.0" bracket (assume it's this?) for ceiling mounting, which would make them sit somewhat away from the ceiling (is this to allow them to be angled, and if so I assume flush mounting wouldn't be advisable?)

That said, cabling on the walls and ceiling, even if in tubing, maybe a step too far, though (both for me and partner)! [Even relatively neat jobs like this one are pretty obvious.] To avoid this - If I was to move to a 5.1.4 setup it may be possible to use the speaker cables from the rear speakers to pull up additional cables for one pair, and then use those rear cables for the second pair. If I did this, I had intended to remove the speakers on the back wall; my side rears are a bit too far forward due to the placement of the door, so I get that's a bit of a compromise. Which pair would you retain vs remove? (Will include a couple of images to show the current setup.)

Then again, this would only probably be possible if I was to cut a decent enough sized hole in the ceiling to be able to locate and manipulate the cables - which would probably only make sense if I was going with in-ceiling speakers...

Are you suggesting on-ceiling over in-ceiling speakers for audio quality reasons, or for ease of installation? If the former, and I'm happy to wear the hassle/cost of install, do you have any recommendations for similarly decent-value in-ceiling models?

I'm sure hoping that Atmos wasn't a thing when I got this sleepout built, as otherwise I look like a right dork if I'd had the opportunity to pre-wire and didn't do so!

Thanks again.

AliExpress

Shop now on AliExpress (affiliate link).

jonathan18

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#2836724 22-Dec-2021 10:23

Reading up and cogitating on this a bit more has led me to think that the height of my surrounds causes problems for the placement and effectiveness of height channels - I totally get, for Atmos, the logic of placing surrounds close to ear height, but this isn't an option in my room due to the need to keep them out of the way (ie, shifting them isn't an option). Dolby's guide definitely pushes for the placement of height speakers just forward (if x.x.2) or forward and behind (if x.x.4) the main seating position, but doing that in my room seems counterintuitive, given the height of my surrounds (surrounds and height speakers will be on a too similar plane, so I imagine I'll lose a lot of the differentiation between them).

Given these limitations, I'm wondering if the best approach may be to stick with a 7.1.2 setup, with placing the height speakers either as wall-mounted units on the top of the walls directly above the main speakers, or on-ceiling or in-ceiling units somewhere a bit forward of the fronts (ie, "FHL/FHR' or 'TFL/TFR' as per the diagram below, which is from my receiver's manual). The former of these - at the top of the walls - would no doubt be a much easier install, and I think I could cope with even having to cut up the wall gib to get the cables through the dwangs.

Any thoughts on this (il)logic? Is the extra hassle of ceiling-mounting worth it in terms of performance?

Also, @Dunnersfella - you're clearly knowledgeable in the HT space, so I'd appreciate your advice and suggestions.

Thanks.

jonathan18

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#2846935 12-Jan-2022 08:19

Since my last post above I've received and installed both the receiver and front height speakers; ended up going with @ShinyChrome's suggestions of a pair of Polk OWM3s. Went for wall mounting above the fronts, using Ghost Wire speaker cable, which is a thin tape-based cable that's simply stuck to the wall and then painted over. (Had to buy a long roll of this so will have the rest for sale if someone wants it. Takes a little bit of time to install it nicely, but still a lot less work/cost than cutting gib/drilling through dwangs!))I only finished putting them up last night so haven't even recalibrated the receiver, but I have a further question re 7.1.2 vs 5.1.4:

While I am unable to drop the height of the side surrounds (the front panels of which are 37cm from the ceiling), I can move the rear surrounds to the very top of the wall (so the front panel of these rears would be 25cm higher compared to the sides).

Would this make enough of a differentiation to make it worth running the rear speakers as back height channels, ie have the receiver set up for 5.1.4? (Noting I'd then be running different brands front and rear.)

I know the logical answer is 'try it and see', but I'd rather I have some sense as to whether it's worth it as shifting them is a bit of a palaver. Photos below show the current location of the rears and the newly installed front heights for comparison. Thanks for any advice.

ShinyChrome

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#2853470 19-Jan-2022 14:04

Wow, the ghost wires look good; really have to look for them to know they are there. How is it with just the front heights?

TBH, since the side and rear speakers are still going to be relatively a high elevation compared to the MLP, I would think that the slight height difference won't be enough to give any meaningful separation effect with the rears slightly higher. I'll admit, it is hard to tell the spatial relations of everything with the distortion of the camera.

If you want to play around with it a bit without having to remove anything, I have a spare set of speakers and a long run of cabling (my surround speakers before they were retired) that you could borrow to get an idea of what the separation sounds like with surrounds at ear height. Really, I would just spend a good bit of time trying your setup in every which way to see what effects each different combination has (if any)

jonathan18

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#2853711 19-Jan-2022 17:52

Yeah, really happy with that speaker cable; must measure up the remainder to see if anyone is keen to buy it.

Thanks for your offer of the speakers, but in the end I went ahead and pushed the rears up to ceiling height as a second pair of height speakers, and recalibrated the system; I’ve also set the two sets of height speakers up 1db from the Audessy settings, and while it’s hard to have an accurate idea of what this new set-up sounds like vs the previous 7.1.2 (as that A/B is pretty difficult to do now!), my impression is that it’s better. Those Polks are fine for this purpose; wouldn’t use them as mains for sure, but they totally do what they need to…

The compromise of shifting to a 5.1.4 system was that I lost the ability to use the receiver’s own amps to power the outdoor speakers in zone 2, so have had to purchase a small amp to power that.

But, overall, really really happy with the revised set-up - not bad given that it cost $1900 to buy the receiver, front height speakers, speaker cable, banana plugs, zone 2 amp, and a cooler fan for the receiver.