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208 posts

Master Geek


Topic # 90014 13-Sep-2011 12:06
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I have an old three wire home telephone network.
I also have/had a second telephone line (two wire) installed which is not doing anything as it's been disconnected some time ago.

Currently the ADSL2+ service is via the old three wire network and clocking up CRC and other asorted errors, it not a clean network.

The second line that was installed some time ago is a two wire connection and is MUCH cleaner when it comes to quality of the line. (Circa year 2000)

I want to install a VDSL2 splitter/filter (http://www.3max.co.nz/) at the demarcation and run the ADSL2 connection on the secondary line leaving the primary line (three wire) for household telephones.

Because of the three line phone connections (master/slave etc) and only two line VDSL2 input, am I about to meet an immovable barrier????

Is this doable?

Did a VERY crude test of the primary(three wire) and secondary(two wire) line years ago, I was able to determine the three wire home network was not up to snuff.

Old three wire network NEVER got a dialup connection above 42Kbps.
New two wire network always connected at a dailup speed of 52Kbps and sometimes 53Kbps.
 
Already have CAT6 cable running from one end of the house to the other for data needs so not interested in re-cabling the house to remove the three wire telephone lines WHEN an VDSL2 filter 'may' provide a simple solution.

Any thoughts.

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  Reply # 520447 13-Sep-2011 13:34
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I'm not entirely sure what you think the problem is.

The Telecom line in from the street only has a single pair - the 3rd wire is generated from the master jackpoint.

A VDSL splitter is installed at the demarc and a new cable run to a single jackpoint for DSL, and to the existing wiring for voice. It makes no difference what type of jackpoints you are using, but in an ideal world you would swap out the old 3 wire with new 2 wire.

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  Reply # 520449 13-Sep-2011 13:35
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@Tom_Rush - I've talked to someone at Chorus about this and they'll pick it up and respond shortly.

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  Reply # 520463 13-Sep-2011 13:53
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As biddle indicated there are only 2 wires from the dmarc to the connection in the house, in the old days I think the 3 wire came off one of the pairs to activate the phone ringer but now is redundent. If it was me I would run a clean cable (cat5 if possible) from the jackpoint to the box at the side of your house where it comes in off the dmark. If there is already a splitter in this box just cut it in and forget about the existing cables. Cable is cheap its the labour cost that kills you



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Master Geek


  Reply # 520511 13-Sep-2011 15:27
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sbiddle: I'm not entirely sure what you think the problem is.

The Telecom line in from the street only has a single pair - the 3rd wire is generated from the master jackpoint.

A VDSL splitter is installed at the demarc and a new cable run to a single jackpoint for DSL, and to the existing wiring for voice. It makes no difference what type of jackpoints you are using, but in an ideal world you would swap out the old 3 wire with new 2 wire.


I like what you're saying.

And you're right I don't have a problem. [looks around sheepishly] Just went out and checked the house mounted incoming termination box AGAIN in detail. Had a quick look yesterday...in a storm [Surprised] thus the questions without proper investigation.

Two pair coming off the street black/yellow, white/brown

Black/yellow services the primary phone line and white/brown the secondary phone line.

Where I got miss-lead was that I thought a termination tester attached to the second line was a capacitor in my first quick look.

Black/Yellow into the VDSL2 splitter, connect primary house wiring to Voice and reconnect the secondary line to DSL, job done and still time to watch the game.

Will have to get a new termination box to house the VDSL2 filter as the existing box is only as big as a wall outlet.


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  Reply # 520722 13-Sep-2011 22:59
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Tom_Rush:
Where I got miss-lead was that I thought a termination tester attached to the second line was a capacitor in my first quick look.



If you had a test module attached to the second line it was a capacitor + 470k R bridging the line. The old Master jacks had the same but the C/R point was connected to all other jacks to supply ringing to phones without capacitors. The 3rd wire unbalanced the line at DSL frequencies so was best done away with.

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  Reply # 520790 14-Sep-2011 09:29
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Cool - I see you've resolved it now.

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  Reply # 520814 14-Sep-2011 10:13
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If you're running DSL on a line by itself there is no technical requirement for a splitter/filter. Just run a cable run from the 2nd line in the ETP to a new dedicated RJ45 socket or 2 wire BT jackpoint for DSL only.




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Master Geek


  Reply # 521163 14-Sep-2011 20:08
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sbiddle: If you're running DSL on a line by itself there is no technical requirement for a splitter/filter. Just run a cable run from the 2nd line in the ETP to a new dedicated RJ45 socket or 2 wire BT jackpoint for DSL only.



That would be very true.

BUT....

I have the following:

 Telecom NZ line1--->6metre copper pair--->Splice (spliced in ceiling onto two OLD solid colour 3 pair cable)  
 Splice[1]---> master wall jack in kitchen(three wires)---> secondary slave jack (three wires) ---> skyTV jack (two wires).
 Splice[2]---> Bedroom slave wall jack(three wires)

 Telecom NZ line2(disconnected at exchange)--->CAT5e--->Wall plate in office

One good thing about all this is that the splice in the ceiling is close to the ceiling man hole.

Now currently my ALSD2+ connection to my modem is via a 20m CAT6 cable(Telecom Engineers please look away) connected to the SkyTV jack in the lounge via a RJ11--->RJ45 jumper.

BUT in the next few days...

I'll insert the VDSL2 filter at the end of the copper wire pair from line1 in the ceiling.
Connect the voice line to the OLD original phone lines and run the DSL data CAT5e off the VDSL2 data link.

Should be banging.

Not sure about the (CAT1????) 6m copper pair cable. Probably should be replaced with CAT5e (gosh and all I have is CAT6 Laughing)

OR I could just 'wedge' the VDSL2 filter into the existing Telecom external network box and just re-wire the existing cables, that way there'll be no confusion in what role the existing wiring plays.

If I did re-wire the VDLS2 filter inside the house at the end of the 6m copper pair cable, I'd snip the CAT5e second line in the Telecom network box, just leaving the termination tester in place. Which I think is a good thing...maybe??? (cause it's not in use).  The cables are all 'glued' into the exit/entery point of the Telecom network box, so can't be removed/moved.

Then really, I'm in the ball park of all the other people here with wiring projects.
Starting from the point the Telecom NZ cable meets the house 'should' all be replaced with CAT5e, RJ45 wall plates and central patch block including VDSL2 filter... "Mate, she's a pretty big job..."





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Master Geek


  Reply # 522287 17-Sep-2011 11:24
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Got my VDSL2 filter in place.

Split it off the Telecom NZ house box as the CAT5e cable was already in place there and it saved re-cabling the house to bring it up to at least a CAT5e standard.
The copper pair that supported the household three wire master/slave telephone lines is just re-connected to the VDSL2 filter phone line.

It is unclear how much difference the VDSL2 data filter has made compared to the re-introduction of the CAT5e cabling which was a decommissioned second telephone line that now services the DSL modem connection.

_________________________________________________
Current DSL line stats for Thomson TG585 V8 modem.

DSL Type:    G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:    993 / 15.596
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:    997 / 13.611
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]:    54,92 / 952,79
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:    12,0 / 17,5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:    10,0 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:    13,5 / 12,0

SpeedTest

Downlaod: 11766Kbps
Upload: 837Kbps
PING: 25ms

_______________________________________________
Past DSL line stats for Thomson TG585 V8 modem.

DSL Type:G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:1.001 / 12.900
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:993 / 11.494
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]:148,24 / 741,50
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:12,0 / 18,5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:11,0 / 21,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:13,5 / 12,0

SpeedTest

Downlaod: 9925Kbps
Upload: 830Kbps
PING: 26ms

________________________________________________
Original DSL line stats when ADSL2+ was first install 1 month ago

This was the approximate line speed when ADSL2+ was first installed, approximately one month ago.

SpeedTest

Downlaod: 5160Kbps
Upload: 90Kbps
PING: 39ms

________________________________________________
Other observations

Out of interest I downloaded Windows 8 preview (2.9GB) at a constant 11Mbps download.

So, in one month from ordering ADSL2+ I have gone from ~5Mbps to ~12Mbps

And this is not the end as the tail cable to the modem is still a flat modem phone line cable.
I'll re-wire a cable and the wall socket to run RJ45 to JR11 using a CAT6 cable (over-kill).

So the end goal should look like the following for DSL modem service.

--> Telecom NZ
--> VDSL2 filter
--> CAT5e (approx 12m)
--> CAT6 tail (approx 3m)
--> TG 585 V8 modem

Also like to work on getting the line Attenuation down a bit more too, but running out of places to check. Smile
May swap my Thomson modem for a Linksys one just to compare and see if there is any difference.

Anyway, things to do busy busy...








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  Reply # 522290 17-Sep-2011 11:29
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Tom_Rush: May swap my Thomson modem for a Linksys one just to compare and see if there is any difference.



If anything you'll only notice a drop in sync speed.



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Master Geek


  Reply # 522342 17-Sep-2011 15:00
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sbiddle:
Tom_Rush: May swap my Thomson modem for a Linksys one just to compare and see if there is any difference.



If anything you'll only notice a drop in sync speed.


It's almost like you've done this before. Wink



____________________________________________
Thomson TG585 V8

Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:    1.009 / 15.756
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:    997 / 13.750
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]:    5,18 / 45,16
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:    12,0 / 17,5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:    10,0 / 19,5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:    14,0 / 12,5

_____________________________________________
Linksys WAG120N

Status: Up
Downstream Rate: 13862 kbps
Upstream Rate: 997 kbps
          
PVC Connection     
Encapsulation: RFC 2364 PPPoA
Multiplexing: VC
QoS: VBR
PCR: 35
SCR: 33
Autodetect: Disable
VPI: 0
VCI: 100
Enable: 1
PVC Status: Up
________________________________________________

The available bandwidth on both modems remains the same at ~13.7Mbps

Both modems produce a download speed of ~11.9Mbps.

Additionally, the Thomson modem also shows a maximum bandwidth figure of 15.7Mbps

Even changing from UBR to VBR on the Linksys WAG120N using a slightly higher cell rate, didn't change anything.

So Thomson TG585V8 modem is still fit for purpose with basic DSL line stats a bonus.

Interestingly, unless the Linksys WAG120N has an 'unlisted' menu that provides additional DSL line stats, there's not much to go on with this modem. Hard to diagnose network improvements.

Linksys E4200 has a hidden 192.168.1.1/System.asp menu for additional system stats.

Time to get out the crimping tools and start making a cable I guess...


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  Reply # 522345 17-Sep-2011 15:05
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Linksys compatibilty with the newer Ikanos linecards isn't that great. Probably the best DSL modems around right now are the TP-Link's. While they may not have some of the features that the more expensive brands have, the DSL performance is rock solid.




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Master Geek


  Reply # 522401 17-Sep-2011 16:49
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Oh, just in case someone collars me for not getting things correct.

An ATM cell is 48Bytes + 5Byte header which is 424bits.

To get the Peak Cell Rate you take the bandwidth of the line and divide it by the cell size.

Thus if the bandwidth is 13Mbps you'd divide 13000000/424 giving you ~30660.

This gives you the peak cell rate (PCR) of 30660.
The Sustain Cell Rate (SCR) should be lower at a level where a continuous data stream can be maintained.

I see in my previous post I pasted a Linksys WAG120N configuration which was wrong.
That configuration was just me testing if any of these configurations made any difference.
In the case of my ADSL2+ connection, The UBR or VBR configuration made no difference.  
Interestingly LLC and VC made no noticeable difference either, but I would suggest VC for multiplexing.

Just thought I should address this for completeness.

On another note Linksys has a full and complete overview of the menu structure and functionality of each device.

This can be found at  ui.linksys.com if you ever need to know what a given device supports or has available it's a good starting point.



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Master Geek


  Reply # 524268 21-Sep-2011 20:04
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I'm happy with the current broadband service I have, however if I can improve it I will.

Swapped out the 3m 431A/RJ11 fly-lead to my TG585V8 modem/gateway.
The wall termination is now a RJ45 wall plate and the fly-lead is now RJ45/RJ14 using a CAT6 cable (Didn't have any 2pair CAT5e cable)

This has made no difference to the link speed or the speed the TG 585V8 modem/gateway is sync'd to.
Still getting approx. 11.9Mbps download speed.

All my speed tests are conducted on a 1Gb LAN via the 10/100Mbps TG585 Ethernet and not via WiFi.

__________________________________________________
Thomson TG585 V8

DSL Type:    G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:    1.009 / 15.676
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:    1.009 / 13.778
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]:    15,63 / 133,55
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:    12,0 / 17,5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:    10,0 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:    13,5 / 12,0
__________________________________________________

As a final throw of the dice, I'll disconnect the internal house phone wiring leaving only the DSL line in place and test again. This will indicate if the old house wiring is having any impact on the DSL data line via the VDSL2 filter.







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Master Geek


  Reply # 525059 23-Sep-2011 15:02
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So, to wrap up this little project we have the following Summary:

Telecom NZ Access Standards

Telecom Code of Practice for Residential-Type Customer Premises Wiring

The starting point was a home wired for telephones with dubious internal telephone only cabling.
The wall outlets used the older master/slave three wire connections.
________________________________________________
Thomson TG585V8 installed on existing telephone home wiring.

DSL Type:G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:1.001 / 12.900
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:993 / 11.494
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]:148,24 / 741,50
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:12,0 / 18,5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:11,0 / 21,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:13,5 / 12,0

Download: 9935Kbps
Upload: 885Kbps
PING: 26ms

_________________________________________________

A VDSL2 filter was attached to the six metre copper pair cable leading from the demarcation box (ETP) with the exiting house telephone wiring patched to the voice line of the filter.

A two pair CAT5e cable which was a second line before being disconnected was re-connected to the data line of the VDSL2 filter with one pair connected to the voice line. This gave the CAT5e cable one voice and one data connection which then lead to one room in the house.

The wiring configuration produced the following ADSL2+ link status:

________________________________________________
Thomson TG585V8 after wiring complete.

DSL Type:    G.992.5 annex A
Maximum Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:    981 / 16.004
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:    997 / 13.806
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]:    29,90 / 263,72
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:    12,0 / 17,5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:    10,0 / 19,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:    13,0 / 12,5

Download: 11926Kbps
Upload: 849Kbps
PING: 26ms

_________________________________________________
Other Observations

In my case using a CAT6 RJ45 to RJ14 fly-lead(Didn't have any two pair CAT5e) from the wall plate to the Thomson TG585V8 made no noticeable difference in performance to the quality of the line/signal to/from the Thomson TG585V8 modem/gateway.

Disconnecting the existing voice wiring from the VDSL2 filter made no difference to the quality of the data signal sent to/from the Thomson TG585V8 modem/gateway.

Swapping out a Thomson TG585V8 for a Linksys WAG120N made no difference to the quality of the data signal sent to/from the modem/gateway during the time frame of the test.

It has been suggested that a TP-Link modem/gateway may give the best ADSL2+ results at this time.
That said, over the last two months my Thomson TG585V8 has been very stable.. and it was free.


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