Does NZ need better gun laws?

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#1121244 3-Sep-2014 16:23

heylinb4nz:
sdav:
heylinb4nz:
sdav:
DravidDavid: And if you are a hunter, your target isn't always stationary either, haha :) I don't hunt, but moving around targets shooting at them as quick as possible gets the blood pumping and adrenalin runs high.

I've resisted staying out of this thread... All I want to say is that is not a good pro gun example.

Only because you are using emotional stereotyping based on the drivel that media feeds you. You assume he is fantasizing about killing innocent people with a gun or pre-tending to be a spec ops operator. Is it unreasonable to think that someone might just enjoying the skill and thrill of target shooting and competing in a sport against other athletes ? does it matter what equipment he uses ? Then there is all the other unseen aspects of target shooting like equipment setup, reloading, muscle memory training, speed and agility training.....things that don't involve firing off live ammo.

You could have not missed my point more if you tried which is why I am staying out of this thread. Using hunters as an argument for how great they are at target identification and accuracy is a poor example.

Actually considering the amount of people doing it year in year out accidental deaths are low, in fact more people die or are injured doing non firearms related sports \ activities. On the target shooting thing, pistol shooters (and also 3gun) shoot at mixture of stationary and moving targets (whilst also on the move).

Added to that they also have complusory reloads, are marked on speed, accuracy, and also can be disqualified for any number of minor infractions (dropping gun, finger on trigger during a mag change, unsafe holstering, not clearing between gun changes).

I would say that they are under even more pressure \ workload than police officers who's training consists of draw, empty mag into stationary target at 5M ranges.

Make no mistake, NZ Police are woefully undertrained even for target shooting purposes...let alone attending to and responding to armed incidents. Id rather my local competition shooter came to my aid thanks...vs a snotty nosed cop fresh out of training college and a giant superiority complex. (yes these type of police exist and we give them guns).

had about enough of the insults hurled at the Police and suggesting target shooters are better suited so can we get back on topic or just start another thread on your opinions of the Police v target shooters

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#1121253 3-Sep-2014 16:27

mattwnz: Allegedly another firearms incident today http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11318496&ref=NZH_Tw

Yeah NZ media will be all over firearms stuff since its a hot topic now.

Problem is NZ Police define a firearm as anything that looks like a firearm.

ie A block of wood, paintball gun, plastic toy....etc

Media will always report it as pistol or firearm....and rarely do a followup report to say what it turned out to be.

General sheeple of NZ (politicians included) then form the opinion of us having a gun problem and needing to tweak laws.

Reminds me a few months ago I sent info to Onehunga arms officer about the plethora of replica firearms (airsoft) and illegal knives available to public in the various $2 shops, basically got brushed off and told they weren't concerned. To busy focusing on the real issues of licensed firearms holders instead.

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#1121273 3-Sep-2014 16:34

had about enough of the insults hurled at the Police and suggesting target shooters are better suited so can we get back on topic or just start another thread on your opinions of the Police v target shooters

The thread is about gun laws in New Zealand.

The police are at the forefront of dicking around with our laws (in a bad way). So in that sense no insults, they are useless when it comes to enforcing and administering firearms laws, they push for bad laws, they unlawfully make up laws....AND they are woeful undertrained and bad at shooting (compared to the people they target with their useless behaviour)

If you were a firearms owner and had to deal with them at the level we do you would see that they are completely useless for everything other than issuing traffic tickets and breaking up the odd domestic.

No insults

Pure fact.

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#1121301 3-Sep-2014 16:53

heylinb4nz:
had about enough of the insults hurled at the Police and suggesting target shooters are better suited so can we get back on topic or just start another thread on your opinions of the Police v target shooters

The thread is about gun laws in New Zealand.

The police are at the forefront of dicking around with our laws (in a bad way). So in that sense no insults, they are useless when it comes to enforcing and administering firearms laws, they push for bad laws, they unlawfully make up laws....AND they are woeful undertrained and bad at shooting (compared to the people they target with their useless behaviour) If you were a firearms owner and had to deal with them at the level we do you would see that they are completely useless for everything other than issuing traffic tickets and breaking up the odd domestic.

No insults

Pure fact.

being insulting again and based largely on your opinion unless you can show some facts that they are completely useless.

You sound like an authority on the Police and laws what are your qualifications to make such statements.

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#1121306 3-Sep-2014 17:00

heylinb4nz:
jeffnz:
heylinb4nz:

Cut the emotion out, stop watching Hollywood action movies and citing USA examples. NZ is perfectly fine and responsible with its guns...we have bigger issues that need our attention.

totally agree so lets stop talking about concealed weapons then.

:) Agree :)

We should shift focus to problems with current laws
a) holes in the A-Cat system (safe storage, mailorder, licencing)
b) unecessary guff in the Bcat\Ecat system (permits, importing, use outside of range)
c) the whole what constitutes an MSSA and why its a non issue that police need to let go

The suspect in this case was apprehended on farmland. To some degree he may be familiar with the farm environment.

It is not unusual for firearms to be relatively unsecured in that environment for any number of different reasons. It is speculation, but this is how he may have obtained the item.

If this is the case, then this will become a discussion about correct storage, and of course down the line correct disposal of items which no longer serve any need.

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#1121309 3-Sep-2014 17:05

jeffnz:
heylinb4nz:
had about enough of the insults hurled at the Police and suggesting target shooters are better suited so can we get back on topic or just start another thread on your opinions of the Police v target shooters

The thread is about gun laws in New Zealand.

The police are at the forefront of dicking around with our laws (in a bad way). So in that sense no insults, they are useless when it comes to enforcing and administering firearms laws, they push for bad laws, they unlawfully make up laws....AND they are woeful undertrained and bad at shooting (compared to the people they target with their useless behaviour) If you were a firearms owner and had to deal with them at the level we do you would see that they are completely useless for everything other than issuing traffic tickets and breaking up the odd domestic.

No insults

Pure fact.

being insulting again and based largely on your opinion unless you can show some facts that they are completely useless.

You sound like an authority on the Police and laws what are your qualifications to make such statements.

a) been studying firearms law and history pro and anti, past and present for close to 6 years
b) active member of various shooting organisations within NZ
c) been involved in submissions process on new laws AAB2 and AAB3
d) been on receiving end of bad law
e) dealings with numerous Arms officers
f) seen plenty of police and AOS training sessions \ qualifications at local club
g) media \ news (plenty of examples for public to see)
h) actively analyse flaws in NZ firearms law and bring to attention of Police
i) study of politics in NZ
j) study of United Nations mandates and agendas in regards to (Arms Trade Treaty and wider UN Agenda)

Mabey its just my opinion, but I think my level of knowledge and first hand experiences are to the level where they could be considered factual.

Its a big beast (even just the NZ system) but once you are involved in it, and study it, you realise its flaws.

The average firearm owner barely goes deep enough to see the real truth.

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#1121310 3-Sep-2014 17:07

jeffnz:
heylinb4nz:
had about enough of the insults hurled at the Police and suggesting target shooters are better suited so can we get back on topic or just start another thread on your opinions of the Police v target shooters

The thread is about gun laws in New Zealand.

The police are at the forefront of dicking around with our laws (in a bad way). So in that sense no insults, they are useless when it comes to enforcing and administering firearms laws, they push for bad laws, they unlawfully make up laws....AND they are woeful undertrained and bad at shooting (compared to the people they target with their useless behaviour) If you were a firearms owner and had to deal with them at the level we do you would see that they are completely useless for everything other than issuing traffic tickets and breaking up the odd domestic.

No insults

Pure fact.

being insulting again and based largely on your opinion unless you can show some facts that they are completely useless.

You sound like an authority on the Police and laws what are your qualifications to make such statements.

Like look at that whole thing about "free standing pistol grip". The police tried to arbitrarily make a law, the court rejected it when someone took a case and then the police had a cry to the government to get it changed so they wouldn't lose face. And how does this really make any different int he world to safety?? Just a police ego thing.

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#1121311 3-Sep-2014 17:13

heylinb4nz:

a) been studying firearms law and history pro and anti, past and present for close to 6 years
b) active member of various shooting organisations within NZ
c) been involved in submissions process on new laws AAB2 and AAB3
d) been on receiving end of bad law
e) dealings with numerous Arms officers
f) seen plenty of police and AOS training sessions \ qualifications at local club
g) media \ news (plenty of examples for public to see)
h) actively analyse flaws in NZ firearms law and bring to attention of Police
i) study of politics in NZ
j) study of United Nations mandates and agendas in regards to (Arms Trade Treaty and wider UN Agenda) Mabey its just my opinion, but I think my level of knowledge and first hand experiences are to the level where they could be considered factual. Its a big beast (even just the NZ system) but once you are involved in it, and study it, you realise its flaws. The average firearm owner barely goes deep enough to see the real truth.

hardly qualifications to call Police completely useless. Given your knowledge on gun law why cannot you stick to that instead of wild conjecture and opinions you call facts on Police.

As I've said before being a target shooter hardly compares to front line policing and I'd still prefer them to turn up than you or one of your mates.

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#1121312 3-Sep-2014 17:13

gzt:
heylinb4nz:
jeffnz:
heylinb4nz:

Cut the emotion out, stop watching Hollywood action movies and citing USA examples. NZ is perfectly fine and responsible with its guns...we have bigger issues that need our attention.

totally agree so lets stop talking about concealed weapons then.

:) Agree :)

We should shift focus to problems with current laws
a) holes in the A-Cat system (safe storage, mailorder, licencing)
b) unecessary guff in the Bcat\Ecat system (permits, importing, use outside of range)
c) the whole what constitutes an MSSA and why its a non issue that police need to let go

The suspect in this case was apprehended on farmland. To some degree he may be familiar with the farm environment.

It is not unusual for firearms to be relatively unsecured in that environment for any number of different reasons. It is speculation, but this is how he may have obtained the item.

If this is the case, then this will become a discussion about correct storage, and of course down the line correct disposal of items which no longer serve any need.

Storage is definately a weak point in NZ law, if they (The Police) got as hung up about storage as they did the features of what makes a rifle an MSSA, we wouldn't have theft of firearms.

Minimum steel thickness and mounting means nothing if the locking mechanism was designed in China and is the weak point. Hell even the minimum thickness for A-cat stuff woeful let alone locking mechanism. 3mm steel is like a filing cabinet...and believe me some A-Cat firearms are waaayyy more lethal than pistols which have way more controls.

you know you can buy an AK47 or AR15 or Saiaga 12g on an A-Cat...sure youre limited to 7 rounds and a A-Cat style stock......but crazy as it may seem you can buy a 30 round magazine with no licence...buying is legal.....having a compatible firearm without E Cat licence is Illegal.

See what I mean ?

The laws even at the lowest level are cocked up and need fixing.

Police focus on the wrong things and the wrong people.

heylinb4nz

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#1121317 3-Sep-2014 17:19

jeffnz:
heylinb4nz:

a) been studying firearms law and history pro and anti, past and present for close to 6 years
b) active member of various shooting organisations within NZ
c) been involved in submissions process on new laws AAB2 and AAB3
d) been on receiving end of bad law
e) dealings with numerous Arms officers
f) seen plenty of police and AOS training sessions \ qualifications at local club
g) media \ news (plenty of examples for public to see)
h) actively analyse flaws in NZ firearms law and bring to attention of Police
i) study of politics in NZ
j) study of United Nations mandates and agendas in regards to (Arms Trade Treaty and wider UN Agenda) Mabey its just my opinion, but I think my level of knowledge and first hand experiences are to the level where they could be considered factual. Its a big beast (even just the NZ system) but once you are involved in it, and study it, you realise its flaws. The average firearm owner barely goes deep enough to see the real truth.

hardly qualifications to call Police completely useless. Given your knowledge on gun law why cannot you stick to that instead of wild conjecture and opinions you call facts on Police.

As I've said before being a target shooter hardly compares to front line policing and I'd still prefer them to turn up than you or one of your mates.

Front line policing yes (ie issuing tickets and breaking up domestics)..send in the cops...but if I needed someone to show up armed....god forbid it....wearing a uniform and having the authority under law doesnt make a person competent to use a firearm....let alone come to someones aid with one. Only training can do that, and as stated that still wont prepare you fully for real life.

You dont need qualifications anyway

Police actions speak louder than any words. Its well known they have some of the worst human traits and attitudes in their ranks....and we are supposed to trust these people ??

heylinb4nz

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#1121324 3-Sep-2014 17:25

Zeon:
jeffnz:
heylinb4nz:
had about enough of the insults hurled at the Police and suggesting target shooters are better suited so can we get back on topic or just start another thread on your opinions of the Police v target shooters

The thread is about gun laws in New Zealand.

The police are at the forefront of dicking around with our laws (in a bad way). So in that sense no insults, they are useless when it comes to enforcing and administering firearms laws, they push for bad laws, they unlawfully make up laws....AND they are woeful undertrained and bad at shooting (compared to the people they target with their useless behaviour) If you were a firearms owner and had to deal with them at the level we do you would see that they are completely useless for everything other than issuing traffic tickets and breaking up the odd domestic.

No insults

Pure fact.

being insulting again and based largely on your opinion unless you can show some facts that they are completely useless.

You sound like an authority on the Police and laws what are your qualifications to make such statements.

Like look at that whole thing about "free standing pistol grip". The police tried to arbitrarily make a law, the court rejected it when someone took a case and then the police had a cry to the government to get it changed so they wouldn't lose face. And how does this really make any different int he world to safety?? Just a police ego thing.

Yeah I remember how that went down as well (Arms Amendment 3, Dec 2013) fast tracked though behind closed doors, basically shooting associations were TOLD what the new law would be, submissions were ignored, they left alot of bad law in which they could have cleaned up. It was all about saving face and sticking it back on R Lincoln who with the NSANZ privately funded the legal case against the crown ($50K if I remember).

Basically now the police commissioner can declare any firearm he likes an MSSA and its upto the owner to prove otherwise.....or get the special licence, the better storage and eventually (this is where its heading)....rounding them all up and destroying them.

Dont even get me started on their illegally enforced hand in policy on E-cat guns and parts..confiscating without reward under police rules....not a law.

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#1121327 3-Sep-2014 17:36

a quick search on "police firearm training" in NZ
https://www.google.co.nz/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#cr=countryNZ&q=police+firearm+training&tbs=ctr:countryNZ

Search Results, first page, 5 out of 5 news links being critical

Police firearms training questioned after accidental shooting ... tvnz.co.nz/.../police-firearms-training-questioned-after-accidental-shooti... Aug 17, 2013 - Police firearms training is under the spotlight after a Hawke's Bay man was accidentally shot in the back by an officer as he was being arrested.
Use of Firearms by Police | New Zealand Police www.police.govt.nz/news/release/3376 Sep 27, 2007 - Where practical Police should not use a firearm unless it can be done ...(7) On every occasion when members receive formal firearms training, ...
Firearms Safety Course - Mountain Safety Council NZ www.mountainsafety.org.nz/training/Firearms/Firearms-Safety-Course.asp PLEASE NOTE: To book your firearms safety test you must contact the Arms Officer at your local NZ Police station. The Firearms Safety course is for members of ...
Firearms Safety - Mountain Safety Council NZ www.mountainsafety.org.nz/Safety-Tips/Firearms-Safety.asp We set standards, offer training, distribute resources, and advocate publicly so more ...The Police Arms Officer, the Mountain Safety Council, or local firearms ...
Firearms 'nightmare' has arrived, say frontline police - New ... www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid... Sep 8, 2009 - Front line police say officers who lack firearms training may be putting their lives at risk. - New Zealand Herald.
Gerhardus Engelbrecht - New Zealand | LinkedIn nz.linkedin.com/pub/gerhardus-engelbrecht/44/963/470 New Zealand - ‎Tactical options Team Leader at New Zealand Police (2014) NZ Police Recruit Firearm Training program: E-Learning Training programs presented: (2012) Police Integrated Tactical Training 1st Responders Day 1 ...
Calls for police firearms training review following Napier death www.newstalkzb.co.nz/.../1192979060-calls-for-police-firearms-training... Jul 18, 2014 - Updated 10:21am: Police say they're already improving firearms trainingfollowing the fatal shooting of Lachan Kelly-Tumarae. A Coroner's ...
Police gun training 'not enough' - national | Stuff.co.nz www.stuff.co.nz/national/4265/Police-gun-training-not-enough Oct 5, 2007 - Police are being accused of double standards after it emerged yesterday they are required to do less training with firearms than hunters.
Police may introduce 'tailored' defensive tactics training model www.policeassn.org.nz › Newsroom › Publications › Featured Articles Mar 31, 2009 - The firearms component of Staff Safety Tactical training modules is not affected. Police say they reduced defensive tactics training after hearing ...
Firearm training cuts endanger police, says union | Radio ... www.radionz.co.nz/.../firearm-training-cuts-endanger-police,-says-union Sep 9, 2009 - Cuts to police training have left some officers facing potentially life-threatening situations without access to firearms, the Police Association ...

Some resource allocations appear lagging behind, I feel safer seeing an OZ cop or UK cop as most of them are armed (even for those stopping traffics). Some NZ cops are probably more friendly and approachable, but in this date, I'd rather not to see their training getting cut.

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#1121330 3-Sep-2014 17:45

heylinb4nz:
mattwnz: Allegedly another firearms incident today http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11318496&ref=NZH_Tw

Yeah NZ media will be all over firearms stuff since its a hot topic now. Problem is NZ Police define a firearm as anything that looks like a firearm.

I suspect it is the media jumping on the story. However I think if there was another similar massacre in the next few days, I think people would be questioning our gun laws more. It is a bit like the whole dangerous dogs thing, where attacks are rare, and all breeds could attack, but their are certain breeds that appear to be far worse at attacking than others.

Regarding things that look like firearms, the same would apply if you had something on an airline that look to be a gun from first glance, and was being used in a gun threatening way. If someone has something that appears like a gun, and is being used to immitate a gun, then I think the police have every right to treat it like one. They can't assume it isn't one, as you know what happens to those that assume.

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#1121332 3-Sep-2014 17:51

Firearms stories are always reported. There is nothing new there.

hangon

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#1121333 3-Sep-2014 17:54

mattwnz:
I suspect it is the media jumping on the story. However I think if there was another similar massacre in the next few days, I think people would be questioning our gun laws more.

What are we questioning for? What can be done to the gun law that would've prevented John Henry Tully from doing what he did?

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