Do you want the flag to stay as it is?

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#1519698 25-Mar-2016 16:10

idle:

The rejection of a new flag is, to my mind, an indication of the essential immaturity of the electorate. Prior to the vote, it was enlightening to read the rage, the anger and the negativity on social media, most of it driven by the anti-Key faction in the community, as well as the "lefties". Anyway, democracy rules, and life moves on, albeit chained to an old flag that symbolizes our old colonial past.

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Dratsab

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#1519740 25-Mar-2016 17:10

Hammerer: I will be interested to see a comprehensive analysis of voting. Post-vote surveys could be indicative of why people voted the way they did. The problem is that if this is highly politicised, as many believe, then many people will respond with whatever serves their political objective rather than telling us why they actually voted the way they did.

I'd be also be interested in seeing how many votes were discarded due to people writing silly phrases on them and what the breakdown of those non-votes was.

roobarb: Maybe we should have a referendum proposing we join our neighbours....

Don't labour under the presumption they actually want us as part of their population :-)

tdgeek: Same. What benefits could we get from being a Republic. UK has no direct effect on us, we are fully independent. The Queen signs off the Royal Assent on new laws, but she always will, that is a mere custom now.

The Queens representative (Governor General) does the signing off. The Queen herself wouldn't have the foggiest idea about new/updated laws being enacted here.

BarTender: Here's an idea. When we next want to change the flag (or become a republic & dump the honors system). Lets get some designers and advertising folks that actually know about flag design and iconography. Yes there were 3 of the 12 that had a modicum of related interest to design (Nicky Bell, Malcolm Mulholland & Hana O’Regan - as we really need to respect the treaty here!).

Then after they come up with some good ideas and present a number of really different designs. Then online voting to whittle it down to 3 or 4 different options.

The the next general election have the 3-4 options available plus the current flag.

Then whoever wins is the flag of choice.

Or do it like they did in Canada.. Just get designers to design something and make a unilateral decision this is the new flag as no one will possibly agree.

I think a combination of this:
- proper designers
- 3-4 choices
- referendum on those choices (excluding the current flag)
- majority flag wins

jeffnz

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#1519742 25-Mar-2016 17:17

MaxLV: The Union Jack won because of all that it stands for to the majority of us New Zealanders that voted to keep it as part of our flag, who recognised it's part in New Zealand's history, and because it represents what New Zealand is today.

Unless you know everyone that voted for the current flag you are just guessing. So I would guess that an "amount" voted because it was a John Key initiative (on both sides of the political spectrum)

The union jack doesn't represent who we are today nor did it properly represent how we started when it was instigated in 1902.

Its fine to want to keep the current flag so no need for ill informed comments

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dafman

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#1519755 25-Mar-2016 17:42

Just back from a bike ride around Waikanae and Peka Peka beach. Saw quite a few Kyle Lockwood's proudly on display in the sea breeze. I'm thinking, money not wasted, when they finally get taken down, it's only a stone's throw to lay them out on the sand (-;

mattwnz

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#1519767 25-Mar-2016 18:06

Dratsab:

Hammerer: I will be interested to see a comprehensive analysis of voting. Post-vote surveys could be indicative of why people voted the way they did. The problem is that if this is highly politicised, as many believe, then many people will respond with whatever serves their political objective rather than telling us why they actually voted the way they did.

I'd be also be interested in seeing how many votes were discarded due to people writing silly phrases on them and what the breakdown of those non-votes was.

roobarb: Maybe we should have a referendum proposing we join our neighbours....

Don't labour under the presumption they actually want us as part of their population :-)

tdgeek: Same. What benefits could we get from being a Republic. UK has no direct effect on us, we are fully independent. The Queen signs off the Royal Assent on new laws, but she always will, that is a mere custom now.

The Queens representative (Governor General) does the signing off. The Queen herself wouldn't have the foggiest idea about new/updated laws being enacted here.

BarTender: Here's an idea. When we next want to change the flag (or become a republic & dump the honors system). Lets get some designers and advertising folks that actually know about flag design and iconography. Yes there were 3 of the 12 that had a modicum of related interest to design (Nicky Bell, Malcolm Mulholland & Hana O’Regan - as we really need to respect the treaty here!).

Then after they come up with some good ideas and present a number of really different designs. Then online voting to whittle it down to 3 or 4 different options.

The the next general election have the 3-4 options available plus the current flag.

Then whoever wins is the flag of choice.

Or do it like they did in Canada.. Just get designers to design something and make a unilateral decision this is the new flag as no one will possibly agree.

I think a combination of this:
- proper designers
- 3-4 choices
- referendum on those choices (excluding the current flag)
- majority flag wins

Design by committee, which was basically what the current process was, you are usually going to end up with a Don-Key. The process was unlikely to ever deliver a Canada or japan flag. The process always needed to be design driven by professionals, and chosen by professionals.

mattwnz

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#1519768 25-Mar-2016 18:07

dafman:

Just back from a bike ride around Waikanae and Peka Peka beach. Saw quite a few Kyle Lockwood's proudly on display in the sea breeze. I'm thinking, money not wasted, when they finally get taken down, it's only a stone's throw to lay them out on the sand (-;

The design certainly fits a beach or tea towel. Wouldn't be surprised if they were selling them already as beach / tea towels.

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#1519770 25-Mar-2016 18:15

mattwnz:
dafman:

Just back from a bike ride around Waikanae and Peka Peka beach. Saw quite a few Kyle Lockwood's proudly on display in the sea breeze. I'm thinking, money not wasted, when they finally get taken down, it's only a stone's throw to lay them out on the sand (-;

The design certainly fits a beach or tea towel. Wouldn't be surprised if they were selling them already as beach / tea towels.

You mean also like the Canadian flag?

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#1519814 25-Mar-2016 20:16

BarTender: (or become a republic & dump the honors system).

People keep saying this... What does "Honors system" has to do with the government type? How does recognising people's work impact how good or bad a government is?

Also, having lived in a republic I'd say the constitutional monarchy is a better system in that some reserve powers exist to make sure things don't go haywire. Or perhaps even a parliamentary republic, like Germany. But don't go crazy on the idea that the system in existence in the US is good for everywhere.

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#1519882 25-Mar-2016 21:40

jeffnz:

MaxLV: The Union Jack won because of all that it stands for to the majority of us New Zealanders that voted to keep it as part of our flag, who recognised it's part in New Zealand's history, and because it represents what New Zealand is today.

Unless you know everyone that voted for the current flag you are just guessing.

So I would guess that an "amount" voted because it was a John Key initiative (on both sides of the political spectrum)

The union jack doesn't represent who we are today nor did it properly represent how we started when it was instigated in 1902.

Its fine to want to keep the current flag so no need for ill informed comments

No I'm not. No more than you are when you say you know why people voted for or against changing the flag. And there is nothing wrong voting against changing the flag because John Key made it a political choice by supporting the alternative.

And the Union Jack does represent what New Zealand is today. It is part of our history as a nation, and that history defines what New Zealand is today. That's why so many of us voted to keep the Union Jack as part of our flag.

BTW if you want to get 'personal' then you're the one making ill informed comments about why the current flag has been voted for by the majority of voters. IOW you're the one who is 'just guessing'.

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#1519903 26-Mar-2016 00:01

jeffnz:
I voted for the alternative flag mainly due to wanting to get rid of the Union Jack of the current one, probably not the best reason.

I think the results have shown there is interest in change but needs to be handled better and taken away from being handled by a political party.

The process was flawed, but to get a design everyone likes is impossible.

The only thing I really disliked about the referendum was the politicizing of it.

Am I upset by result, no I heartened that next time we will get it right and it will definitely change to something that better represents NZ and all the peoples here.

It was a political decision / move. No one was purposely politicizing it. A simple vote during the election asking whether kiwis would like a flag change could have avoided all the dramas and actually reduce the overall cost.

The process was flawed and it was done to ...

roobarb

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#1519917 26-Mar-2016 07:08

nakedmolerat: The process was flawed and it was done to ...

I thought the process started right, and was much like the Australian Republic referendum where they first had to define what the new system would be and then decide whether to switch to it. The people voted against it not because they didn't want a Republic but because the politicians wanted to be the ones who decided who the president would be.

It stops you committing to change and ending up with a more unpopular solution.

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#1519918 26-Mar-2016 07:15

@dratsab

Number of "informal" votes can be seen on the electionsnz website under the election results page which shows the number of votes counted (yeahs and yeah nars and of course yeah naar naar with the latter being the informals).

Informal Votes = those that arrived with more than one selection, no selection or deemed invalid etc.

:-)

tdgeek

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#1519919 26-Mar-2016 07:34

MaxLV:

Yeah it (the Union Jack) does say New Zealand. It is part of our national flag after all. We could have become a french colony if it hadn't been for the Union Jack.

The Union Jack won because of all that it stands for to the majority of us New Zealanders that voted to keep it as part of our flag, who recognised it's part in New Zealand's history, and because it represents what New Zealand is today.

Take this approach. Why would people vote for each?

Old Flag:

1. Im used got it, don't want change. Humans don't like change. Poor reason. Many take this stand

2. It represents NZ. Poor reason it doesnt. Union Jack can be anyone, four red stars, whose heard of the Southern Cross outside of South Pacific and astronomers? Few take this stand, or if they did, it was misinformed and "don't really want change, thanks"

3. It represents our past heritage. Union Jack does, but how is this flag seen as a NZ flag? Nothing on it points to New Zealand. Many take this stand

New Flag:

1. It represents NZ. It does. Everyone took this stand.

IMHO, it all comes down to I don't want change. Canadians didn't either they did not like the new flag, but the Govt chose it, it wasn't a referendum, it was debated in the Govt space. Now they all love it. Beach towel was mentioned then too.

Design:

Many say its a poor design. They did in Canada too, beach towel. Silver fern is a sporting logo. LOL, that is funny. Sports people want a logo that represents NZ, so its a Kiwi or a Silver Fern. What design would you all like? Canada style, with a Kiwi or Silver fern? Union Jack style with a Silver Fern? Black base? No, can't have that as black is a sporting thing.

I see the 56/44 vote as close. Given the many invalid reasons why people would vote for the old flag, and why they would vote for the new flag, its a win for the new flag.

tdgeek

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#1519920 26-Mar-2016 07:42

MaxLV:

jeffnz:

MaxLV: The Union Jack won because of all that it stands for to the majority of us New Zealanders that voted to keep it as part of our flag, who recognised it's part in New Zealand's history, and because it represents what New Zealand is today.

Unless you know everyone that voted for the current flag you are just guessing.

So I would guess that an "amount" voted because it was a John Key initiative (on both sides of the political spectrum)

The union jack doesn't represent who we are today nor did it properly represent how we started when it was instigated in 1902.

Its fine to want to keep the current flag so no need for ill informed comments

No I'm not. No more than you are when you say you know why people voted for or against changing the flag. And there is nothing wrong voting against changing the flag because John Key made it a political choice by supporting the alternative.

I can't believe anyone would say that. Your saying that our national flag is unimportant as I'd rather vote against John Key than our national flag. And if you preferred the new flag, you would vote against it, wow. Democracy isn't perfect. It would ALWAYS be a political issue as a politician would take it onboard. Politicians would talk about it.

And the Union Jack does represent what New Zealand is today. It is part of our history as a nation, and that history defines what New Zealand is today. That's why so many of us voted to keep the Union Jack as part of our flag.

BTW if you want to get 'personal' then you're the one making ill informed comments about why the current flag has been voted for by the majority of voters. IOW you're the one who is 'just guessing'.

You've already stated that some voted against the new flag because of John Key. Its also human psyche to resist change. And there will be some, that genuinely want the old flag. Those that vote for the new flag can only do so if they feel it better represents NZ.

If someone genuinely felt the old flag was better at representing NZ, for the right reasons, I have no issue, but its clear that many voted for reasons that had nothing to do with what better represents NZ

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#1519930 26-Mar-2016 08:31

nakedmolerat:
jeffnz:
I voted for the alternative flag mainly due to wanting to get rid of the Union Jack of the current one, probably not the best reason.

I think the results have shown there is interest in change but needs to be handled better and taken away from being handled by a political party.

The process was flawed, but to get a design everyone likes is impossible.

The only thing I really disliked about the referendum was the politicizing of it.

Am I upset by result, no I heartened that next time we will get it right and it will definitely change to something that better represents NZ and all the peoples here.

It was a political decision / move. No one was purposely politicizing it. A simple vote during the election asking whether kiwis would like a flag change could have avoided all the dramas and actually reduce the overall cost.

The process was flawed and it was done to ...

How can you ask someone if they want a new flag, if they don't know what the new flag looks like?

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