CGA and device software updates

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#2231378 6-May-2019 09:03

tehgerbil:

What. The. Heck. So he's not losing any features, or the original functionality of the device is not impeded in anyway.

He is complaining it did not get software enhancements 3 years after release.

This is NOT what the CGA should be used for, it should be used for the device not being fit for the original purpose, not some future enhancements that may or may not ever be released!!!

Man, I agree with the other sentiment in this thread, he sounds like a piece of work with too much money and time and wanted to be a self entitled pain in the arse.

I think this is an interesting CGA case, as it is testing the boundaries of consumer law and rights. But in a way they got themselves into this mess by not being upfront about OS updates. Who reads the 100 page T&C document?

What about errors and security holes? Surely the critical error support period should be more than 2 years.

I wonder, can I take my 5 year old ipad and claim a refund, because the latest OS update makes it run like molasses! I would love to revert this old ipad back to an earlier OS version that actually worked. But, apple don't allow me to do this. And, I'd also be exposed to security flaws.

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#2231380 6-May-2019 09:06

dejadeadnz:

My prediction - this will go absolutely nowhere. NL will (or should) appeal. It's the principal.

Sigh. I really wish people will stop making legal statements unless they understand the law...

Really helpful comment there mate, thanks for your input. It's not a complicated law. The key part is that the DT doesn't have to follow the strict letter of the law. Have you been to the Disputes Tribunal? I'm guessing so. Last time I was there someone appealed the decision (or applied for a re-heading, I forget which) because they didn't like the result. This is technically not allowed, but by claiming the referee ran it in a way that was unfair, or made a mistake, the appeal can be heard. Tie these two things together and it's practically quite easy to get an appeal.

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#2231381 6-May-2019 09:10

A rehearing isn’t the same thing as an appeal. You can only get an appeal granted in front of a District Court Judge and they aren’t typically morons. What would I know? I have only seen all the leading High Court case law of DT appeals and was responsible for writing a few.

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#2231382 6-May-2019 09:10

tehgerbil:

What. The. Heck. So he's not losing any features, or the original functionality of the device is not impeded in anyway.

He is complaining it did not get software enhancements 3 years after release.

This is NOT what the CGA should be used for, it should be used for the device not being fit for the original purpose, not some future enhancements that may or may not ever be released!!!

Man, I agree with the other sentiment in this thread, he sounds like a piece of work with too much money and time and wanted to be a self entitled pain in the arse.

Anybody purchasing a new car this year should lodge a CGA case next year for a full refund on the basis the 2020 model is better.

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#2231408 6-May-2019 09:44

I agree with the general sentiment here, that the functionality of the watch at the time of purchase should really be the primary consideration. It is a LITTLE bit tricky, because unless there were no security flaws outstanding, security is an ongoing concern. The rest, well you don't expect to buy a toaster (even an expensive one) and then complain 3 years later it's not fit to toast a new type of bread that didn't exist 3 years ago that isn't compatible with traditional toasting methods.

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#2231507 6-May-2019 11:18

As others have pointed out we don't know the specific details of this case and can't trust a sensationalised NZME 'news' article to provide it. However for me the reasonableness factor comes down to one simple thing; were there specific defects in the watch's existing software that required an update to fix, or did the consumer only want the update for the purpose of adding additional features?

Either scenario is possible given how sloppy companies like Apple are with software releases.

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#2231530 6-May-2019 11:40

For Mr + Mrs Joe Average shelling out for a smart watch from Apple is a big expense and I'm not surprised at the outcome. There needs to be a broader 5 year support window for higher end smart devices.

Even with a Mid-range android phone I'd like to see 3 years of updates (from purchase date) rather than the current standard of around 2 years from release.

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robjg63

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#2231576 6-May-2019 12:56

Its one thing when a product breaks and is completely unusable and another when software just stops being supported.

But in saying that - the software is now a core part of many products - so manufacturers really need to start taking that into account.

Software must be a real joy for planned obsolescence. The products no longer have to fall apart or fail - just make sure the software isn't supported anymore.

I suppose it could mean that if the DT decision is upheld then we might stop receiving products that have such a short shelf life.

Maybe that is not such a bad thing....

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Dial111

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#2231582 6-May-2019 12:58

openmedia:
For Mr + Mrs Joe Average shelling out for a smart watch from Apple is a big expense and I'm not surprised at the outcome. There needs to be a broader 5 year support window for higher end smart devices.

Even with a Mid-range android phone I'd like to see 3 years of updates (from purchase date) rather than the current standard of around 2 years from release.

I agree with you on that front but say 3 years became the norm across all devices, people will then complain that isn’t long enough and push for 4-5 years. Where does it stop?

I think manufacturers need to make it clear from the word go that x device will only be supported for x amount of years full stop. That way you know right from the outset how long you have software support.

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#2231589 6-May-2019 13:07

Dial111:
openmedia:

For Mr + Mrs Joe Average shelling out for a smart watch from Apple is a big expense and I'm not surprised at the outcome. There needs to be a broader 5 year support window for higher end smart devices.

Even with a Mid-range android phone I'd like to see 3 years of updates (from purchase date) rather than the current standard of around 2 years from release.

I agree with you on that front but say 3 years became the norm across all devices, people will then complain that isn’t long enough and push for 4-5 years. Where does it stop?

I think manufacturers need to make it clear from the word go that x device will only be supported for x amount of years full stop. That way you know right from the outset how long you have software support.

Well, if you did this, then Manafacturers could get away with 1 year warranties all over again.

Dial111

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#2231601 6-May-2019 13:25

So how do you propose someone like Samsung who manufacture a bazillion phones each year from budget to flagship to continue software support for 3-4 years? You’ve got different variants for the same phone for different markets across the world. It’ll become a mammoth task to support each and every phone, which the number would multiply each year.

Software support- would this only apply to just security patches or does it include updates to the latest OS? I’m guessing no as not all would be able to run the latest version due to hardware limitations.

Warranties and software support are not the same.

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#2231638 6-May-2019 14:10

Dial111: I think manufacturers need to make it clear from the word go that x device will only be supported for x amount of years full stop. That way you know right from the outset how long you have software support.

I think the Pixel does this.

The thing is that manufacturers should be supporting devices for as long as they can, but they don't have an incentive to, because they want to sell people new devices. But it causes a huge amount of e-waste. We are worrying about plastic bags, but e-waste is just as bad, if not worse. So unless it is centrally regulated, there is no incentive for manufacturers to change, because they just want to sell new devices.In the US, their consumer laws are not as good as NZ, so they don't have the CGA, so they rely on warranties and extended warranties, so it seems that phone life spans are based around this, which isn't really compatible with NZs rules.
I remember before smart phones, many people used to hang onto phones for a lot longer than today. It wasn't unusual to have a 5 year old phone, as the functionality was basically the same as it was when it was first purchased. I think they need to look at phones like computers, and say that they should get a good 5 years from them, from the date of manufacture. If you buy an iphone for example, they do now seem to support their devices with OS updates for that amount of time. One problem is that some manufacturers continue to sell old models for several years, so they never get software updates, or for only a few years.

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#2231817 6-May-2019 17:20

if the starts happening all the time manufactures will just stop officially selling their devices here. they run on their timelines for updates and security patches for their devices. a tiny little country like NZ isnt going to force them to change that.

sleemanj

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#2231820 6-May-2019 17:26

Walk into shop

Select product, on box it says "Update Software Automatically For Free"

Buy product

Next day, "Your product is now too old and software updates are no longer available."

I think most would say that should be covered under CGA, right, an advertised function ceased being available in a short time.

So the point of debate here is time, is 3 years long enough?

I think it is, probably, maybe, perhaps, not sure.

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mattwnz

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#2231836 6-May-2019 17:43

sleemanj:

Walk into shop

Select product, on box it says "Update Software Automatically For Free"

Buy product

Next day, "Your product is now too old and software updates are no longer available."

I think most would say that should be covered under CGA, right, an advertised function ceased being available in a short time.

So the point of debate here is time, is 3 years long enough?

I think it is, probably, maybe, perhaps, not sure.

I think some of it comes down to the price paid. $1250 is a lot of money. I had this problem with smart tv where the manufacturer didn't update the apps, and things like youtube, social media apps, infact all the smart features are now no longer functional. But in that case there is a work around, by installing something like a chromecast, although I guess at some stage that also won't get updates and will become a useless. But it seems to have been supported for a reasonable period of time so far. I do think though that there should be some form of warning on the box of these devices about how long such devices maybe supported for, to allow consumers to make a more informed choice.

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