How long should what you say have consequences for?

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#2614503 2-Dec-2020 08:21

Handle9:

Technofreak:

If this was so important should he have ever been appointed to the role?

This is a fairly silly point.

It's analogous to a CEO resigning after being found out to be guilty of historical sexual harassment. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean that it doesn't have present day consequences.

I beg to differ. Your analogy is flawed. These tweets were public knowledge 9 years ago which is very unlike something historical that hasn't been public knowledge.

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MikeB4

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#2614505 2-Dec-2020 08:25

It is not about the transmission of the beliefs it is about the beliefs.

networkn

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#2614511 2-Dec-2020 08:44

Handle9:

All actions have consequences, positive and negative. Is he sorry for the tweets or sorry he got caught? I don't know and I have no idea about the sincererity of his apology. He needs to bear the consequences in the same way Israel Folau or any other public figure does.

There is a massive difference between was IF did and what Matera said. One was a current issue for which the perpetrator wasn't sorry and then did it again months later.

To my knowledge, Matera hasn't done anything similar recently, denounced his position and has given a seemingly heartfelt apology.

My understanding is, this was also known previously and resurfaced.

mdooher

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#2614513 2-Dec-2020 08:45

MikeB4: It is not about the transmission of the beliefs it is about the beliefs.

if you punish someone for stating their beliefs, then you encourage them to keep those beliefs to themselves.

if you instead question those beliefs, and argue a different point of view you get the chance to convince them to change their beliefs.

In this case it appears that he has been convinced already

a couple of quotes come to mind

Luke 15:7

"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."

and

"To err is human, to forgive divine"

Matthew

networkn

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#2614515 2-Dec-2020 08:48

MikeB4: It is not about the transmission of the beliefs it is about the beliefs.

Which he has already clearly stated, he no longer holds. Mission accomplished, surely?

BlueShift

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#2614516 2-Dec-2020 08:48

mdooher:

"To err is human, to forgive divine"

So we don't need to forgive him, that's God's job? Sweet. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and all that.

Fred99

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#2614519 2-Dec-2020 08:50

Geektastic:
Handle9:

This is a fairly silly point.

It's analogous to a CEO resigning after being found out to be guilty of historical sexual harassment. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean that it doesn't have present day consequences.

How is anyone supposed to guard against that? Nobody can predict what might not be acceptable in 30 years but which is acceptable today.

You're dreaming if you think that sexual harassment was "acceptable" 30 years ago. It might not have been prosecuted, but the dirty dogs knew what they were doing was wrong.

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MikeB4

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#2614521 2-Dec-2020 08:53

networkn:

MikeB4: It is not about the transmission of the beliefs it is about the beliefs.

Which he has already clearly stated, he no longer holds. Mission accomplished, surely?

Stating he no longer holds the opinions does not prove he no longer holds these opinions.

BlinkyBill

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#2614523 2-Dec-2020 08:55

The problem with belief, mdooher, is that belief is not based in fact or logic. Therefore believers are hard to shift in their opinion with argument (as in a logic argument, not a shouting match).

People believe, for example, that there is no Coronovirus; people believe Trump when he says he won the election in the US etc. People believe in a god who created the universe, completely without evidence or any reason at all.

Your Luke quotation illustrates this point perfectly.

mdooher

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#2614527 2-Dec-2020 08:57

BlueShift:

mdooher:

"To err is human, to forgive divine"

So we don't need to forgive him, that's God's job? Sweet. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and all that.

this quote is about aspiring to be merciful and forgive ...pretty sure you knew that.

Matthew

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#2614529 2-Dec-2020 09:00

Fred99:

You're dreaming if you think that sexual harassment was "acceptable" 30 years ago. It might not have been prosecuted, but the dirty dogs knew what they were doing was wrong.

It depends on the level of SH also. 20+ years ago almost every trade supplier gave away a (.) (.) calendar each year and it was just accepted... now that is clearly sexual harassment. Times do change what is acceptable.

Touching a colleagues bottom or racism was never OK

I'm not a complete idiot, I still have some parts missing.

BlueShift

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#2614530 2-Dec-2020 09:00

mdooher:

this quote is about aspiring to be merciful and forgive ...pretty sure you knew that.

Yup, its up there with the throwing the first stone line. Which a lot of online commentators could meditate on.

Who amongst us has not said something stupid years ago, that could be held against you today?

networkn

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#2614531 2-Dec-2020 09:04

MikeB4:

Stating he no longer holds the opinions does not prove he no longer holds these opinions.

How would you like him to prove it? Lie Detector test? An interrogation? Waterboarding?

Stating it to be so publically, denouncing the views as unacceptable and that he is ashamed he held them, seems as close to what you can hope for under the circumstances.

At the end of the day, you can't guarantee he won't hold those views, but punishment will not guarantee that either. He does more for society publically denouncing it, than hiding him away saying nothing.

If what you want is something to make *you* feel better, and you feel stripping him of a role gets that done then that's a different story. Pretty unlikely that is the catalyst for change in a person, just makes them keep those deep-seated views hidden deeper.

mdooher

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#2614532 2-Dec-2020 09:05

BlinkyBill:

The problem with belief, mdooher, is that belief is not based in fact or logic. Therefore believers are hard to shift in their opinion with argument (as in a logic argument, not a shouting match).

People believe, for example, that there is no Coronovirus; people believe Trump when he says he won the election in the US etc. People believe in a god who created the universe, completely without evidence or any reason at all.

Your Luke quotation illustrates this point perfectly.

yep it is hard to get someone to change an ingrained belief and some people will never change. but most can be persuaded (to believe anything). Driving it underground will never work

Matthew

mdooher

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#2614534 2-Dec-2020 09:07

BlueShift:

mdooher:

this quote is about aspiring to be merciful and forgive ...pretty sure you knew that.

Yup, its up there with the throwing the first stone line. Which a lot of online commentators could meditate on.

Who amongst us has not said something stupid years ago, that could be held against you today?

ha, I'd be locked up (allegedly)

Matthew

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