Do you want the flag to stay as it is?

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#1520036 26-Mar-2016 15:26

I find the complaints about the left of opponents of the new flag politicising the process pretty strange. This was a highly political process driven by the prime minister. If he had wanted to take politics out of the process by appointing a royal commission or initiated a bi-partisan process he could have however he chose to try and do it in a way that it was his proces.

The article below by Duncan Garner pretty much nails it from my perspective.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/78253159/duncan-garner-the-flagging-fortunes-of-a-leader-chasing-a-legacy

I voted against the change because I really didn't like the way the process was conducted and thought the new flag, and all the other choices presented, were just a bit sh*t.

tdgeek

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#1520039 26-Mar-2016 15:39

SJB:
tdgeek:

jeffnz:

SJB:

When the Queen dies we should become a republic. When we become a republic we get a new flag.

End of story. Pretty well everybody would vote for change then.

whilst I'm against the Union Jack on the flag i'm not,yet, convinced there is any benefit for us going to a republic but that is for another thread to discuss.

Same. What benefits could we get from being a Republic. UK has no direct effect on us, we are fully independent. The Queen signs off the Royal Assent on new laws, but she always will, that is a mere custom now. Unless there is an economic or social benefit, I can't see the point. There are probably things that we might lose from the UK if we chose to be a republic. I see us as a Republic anyway. We control our destiny 100%. Republic or Independent State, same thing pretty much

Isn't there a contradiction in wanting to get rid of the Union Jack but happy to keep the Queen as head of state.

You nailed it. No there isn't. I see myself as a royalist. But I also see the commonwealth and the Queen as a legacy, not today's New Zealand. Wanting a true NZ flag is not ditching the Commomwealth or the Queen, it's a new era. A new story, and not one that turns off our legacy.. Akin to kids leaving home. I'd also be happy with a Union Jack and a Silver Fern. The key, excuse the pun, is a NZ icon on our flag. Fern, kiwi I'm easy

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#1520040 26-Mar-2016 15:50

Handle9:
I find the complaints about the left of opponents of the new flag politicising the process pretty strange. This was a highly political process driven by the prime minister. If he had wanted to take politics out of the process by appointing a royal commission or initiated a bi-partisan process he could have however he chose to try and do it in a way that it was his proces.

The article below by Duncan Garner pretty much nails it from my perspective.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/78253159/duncan-garner-the-flagging-fortunes-of-a-leader-chasing-a-legacy

I voted against the change because I really didn't like the way the process was conducted and thought the new flag, and all the other choices presented, were just a bit sh*t.

Sorry, but I read the article you posted, and was embarrassed to be a kiwi. I've voted national,, labor, greens or not voted at all, as a vote in itself. Duncan's article is highly political. And you cannot have a flag change and it not be political
. To read a leftist rant doesn't really help. I can see how the new flag, if it was the new flag would be a very very cool addition to his CV. But it's also an important issue is it own right. He said that do we want a new flag that bette represents modern New Zealand? That's a god question t ask. We voted. My preference was not decided, I'm ok with that. Well sort of! But I don't buy pro right , or in this case pro left click bait

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#1520060 26-Mar-2016 17:00

The actual question..

Signature goes here.

michael001

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#1520109 26-Mar-2016 18:37

tdgeek: We voted. My preference was not decided, I'm ok with that.

Sounds legit.

Who was using you PC for the last 5 pages of seemingly deranged ranting?

dafman

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#1520119 26-Mar-2016 18:51

This sums it up pretty well, me thinks

tdgeek

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#1520127 26-Mar-2016 19:05

dafman:

This sums it up pretty well, me thinks

Nup

I voted for change, it failed, I should embrace this link to justify, but its embarrassing to read this

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MaxLV

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#1520130 26-Mar-2016 19:10

tdgeek:

MaxLV:

jeffnz:

MaxLV: The Union Jack won because of all that it stands for to the majority of us New Zealanders that voted to keep it as part of our flag, who recognised it's part in New Zealand's history, and because it represents what New Zealand is today.

Unless you know everyone that voted for the current flag you are just guessing.

So I would guess that an "amount" voted because it was a John Key initiative (on both sides of the political spectrum)

The union jack doesn't represent who we are today nor did it properly represent how we started when it was instigated in 1902.

Its fine to want to keep the current flag so no need for ill informed comments

No I'm not. No more than you are when you say you know why people voted for or against changing the flag. And there is nothing wrong voting against changing the flag because John Key made it a political choice by supporting the alternative.

I can't believe anyone would say that. Your saying that our national flag is unimportant as I'd rather vote against John Key than our national flag. And if you preferred the new flag, you would vote against it, wow. Democracy isn't perfect. It would ALWAYS be a political issue as a politician would take it onboard. Politicians would talk about it.

And the Union Jack does represent what New Zealand is today. It is part of our history as a nation, and that history defines what New Zealand is today. That's why so many of us voted to keep the Union Jack as part of our flag.

BTW if you want to get 'personal' then you're the one making ill informed comments about why the current flag has been voted for by the majority of voters. IOW you're the one who is 'just guessing'.

You've already stated that some voted against the new flag because of John Key. Its also human psyche to resist change. And there will be some, that genuinely want the old flag. Those that vote for the new flag can only do so if they feel it better represents NZ.

If someone genuinely felt the old flag was better at representing NZ, for the right reasons, I have no issue, but its clear that many voted for reasons that had nothing to do with what better represents NZ

There you go guessing again, and telling me what I'm saying. The current national flag is too important to me to vote to change it because a politician wants to change it to secure his 'legacy' as a mediocre prime minister. That is one reason why I voted against changing it.

The alternative flag design was/is crap. EOS. That's another reason, and reason enough to reject it as the national flag of New Zealand.

The alternative flag does not represent New Zealand. It's just a very bad 'design' drawn by someone in an idle moment in a university lecture hall.

And most importantly the Union Jack on our flag represents a very important part of New Zealand history, culture, and what New Zealand is today.

Of all the electorates. only six voted for change. Even John Key's own electorate voted to keep the current flag. And the group of voters who had the most reason to change because of the Union Jack, voted overwhelmingly to keep the current flag All the Maori electorates voted 70 - 80% to keep the current flag.

tdgeek

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#1520136 26-Mar-2016 19:24

MaxLV:

tdgeek:

MaxLV:

jeffnz:

MaxLV: The Union Jack won because of all that it stands for to the majority of us New Zealanders that voted to keep it as part of our flag, who recognised it's part in New Zealand's history, and because it represents what New Zealand is today.

Unless you know everyone that voted for the current flag you are just guessing.

So I would guess that an "amount" voted because it was a John Key initiative (on both sides of the political spectrum)

The union jack doesn't represent who we are today nor did it properly represent how we started when it was instigated in 1902.

Its fine to want to keep the current flag so no need for ill informed comments

No I'm not. No more than you are when you say you know why people voted for or against changing the flag. And there is nothing wrong voting against changing the flag because John Key made it a political choice by supporting the alternative.

I can't believe anyone would say that. Your saying that our national flag is unimportant as I'd rather vote against John Key than our national flag. And if you preferred the new flag, you would vote against it, wow. Democracy isn't perfect. It would ALWAYS be a political issue as a politician would take it onboard. Politicians would talk about it.

And the Union Jack does represent what New Zealand is today. It is part of our history as a nation, and that history defines what New Zealand is today. That's why so many of us voted to keep the Union Jack as part of our flag.

BTW if you want to get 'personal' then you're the one making ill informed comments about why the current flag has been voted for by the majority of voters. IOW you're the one who is 'just guessing'.

You've already stated that some voted against the new flag because of John Key. Its also human psyche to resist change. And there will be some, that genuinely want the old flag. Those that vote for the new flag can only do so if they feel it better represents NZ.

If someone genuinely felt the old flag was better at representing NZ, for the right reasons, I have no issue, but its clear that many voted for reasons that had nothing to do with what better represents NZ

There you go guessing again, and telling me what I'm saying. The current national flag is too important to me to vote to change it because a politician wants to change it to secure his 'legacy' as a mediocre prime minister. That is one reason why I voted against changing it.

The alternative flag design was/is crap. EOS. That's another reason, and reason enough to reject it as the national flag of New Zealand.

The alternative flag does not represent New Zealand. It's just a very bad 'design' drawn by someone in an idle moment in a university lecture hall.

And most importantly the Union Jack on our flag represents a very important part of New Zealand history, culture, and what New Zealand is today.

Of all the electorates. only six voted for change. Even John Key's own electorate voted to keep the current flag. And the group of voters who had the most reason to change because of the Union Jack, voted overwhelmingly to keep the current flag All the Maori electorates voted 70 - 80% to keep the current flag.

Geez, lighten up.

Read again. "If someone genuinely felt" isn't about you.

"The current national flag is too important to me to vote to change it because a politician wants to change it to secure his 'legacy' as a mediocre prime minister. That is one reason why I voted against changing it." You put that as fact, in fact its your opinion

"The alternative flag design was/is crap. EOS. That's another reason, and reason enough to reject it as the national flag of New Zealand. " Again, your opinion. The flag you want wasn't there so its crap, EOS? Ask Canadians in the 60's

"The alternative flag does not represent New Zealand. It's just a very bad 'design' drawn by someone in an idle moment in a university lecture hall." And a Union Jack with four red stars does? Ask the rest of the world.

"And most importantly the Union Jack on our flag represents a very important part of New Zealand history, culture, and what New Zealand is today. "

LOL you have to be joking. I am a royalist. I love the legacy, but I also see today, its a different world. You can embrace both, or shall I say, most can. There is nothing on the current flag that denotes NZ. For my parents, and later who were alive in WW2, I can certainly see their desire to retain the flag. You have to respect that.

My vote was the new flag, it failed, Im fine with that, but your arguments are bizarre. And I am probably more a royalist than you

dafman

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#1520151 26-Mar-2016 20:07

tdgeek:

MaxLV:

tdgeek:

MaxLV:

jeffnz:

MaxLV: The Union Jack won because of all that it stands for to the majority of us New Zealanders that voted to keep it as part of our flag, who recognised it's part in New Zealand's history, and because it represents what New Zealand is today.

Unless you know everyone that voted for the current flag you are just guessing.

So I would guess that an "amount" voted because it was a John Key initiative (on both sides of the political spectrum)

The union jack doesn't represent who we are today nor did it properly represent how we started when it was instigated in 1902.

Its fine to want to keep the current flag so no need for ill informed comments

No I'm not. No more than you are when you say you know why people voted for or against changing the flag. And there is nothing wrong voting against changing the flag because John Key made it a political choice by supporting the alternative.

I can't believe anyone would say that. Your saying that our national flag is unimportant as I'd rather vote against John Key than our national flag. And if you preferred the new flag, you would vote against it, wow. Democracy isn't perfect. It would ALWAYS be a political issue as a politician would take it onboard. Politicians would talk about it.

And the Union Jack does represent what New Zealand is today. It is part of our history as a nation, and that history defines what New Zealand is today. That's why so many of us voted to keep the Union Jack as part of our flag.

BTW if you want to get 'personal' then you're the one making ill informed comments about why the current flag has been voted for by the majority of voters. IOW you're the one who is 'just guessing'.

You've already stated that some voted against the new flag because of John Key. Its also human psyche to resist change. And there will be some, that genuinely want the old flag. Those that vote for the new flag can only do so if they feel it better represents NZ.

If someone genuinely felt the old flag was better at representing NZ, for the right reasons, I have no issue, but its clear that many voted for reasons that had nothing to do with what better represents NZ

There you go guessing again, and telling me what I'm saying. The current national flag is too important to me to vote to change it because a politician wants to change it to secure his 'legacy' as a mediocre prime minister. That is one reason why I voted against changing it.

The alternative flag design was/is crap. EOS. That's another reason, and reason enough to reject it as the national flag of New Zealand.

The alternative flag does not represent New Zealand. It's just a very bad 'design' drawn by someone in an idle moment in a university lecture hall.

And most importantly the Union Jack on our flag represents a very important part of New Zealand history, culture, and what New Zealand is today.

Of all the electorates. only six voted for change. Even John Key's own electorate voted to keep the current flag. And the group of voters who had the most reason to change because of the Union Jack, voted overwhelmingly to keep the current flag All the Maori electorates voted 70 - 80% to keep the current flag.

Geez, lighten up.

Read again. "If someone genuinely felt" isn't about you.

"The current national flag is too important to me to vote to change it because a politician wants to change it to secure his 'legacy' as a mediocre prime minister. That is one reason why I voted against changing it." You put that as fact, in fact its your opinion

"The alternative flag design was/is crap. EOS. That's another reason, and reason enough to reject it as the national flag of New Zealand. " Again, your opinion. The flag you want wasn't there so its crap, EOS? Ask Canadians in the 60's

"The alternative flag does not represent New Zealand. It's just a very bad 'design' drawn by someone in an idle moment in a university lecture hall." And a Union Jack with four red stars does? Ask the rest of the world.

"And most importantly the Union Jack on our flag represents a very important part of New Zealand history, culture, and what New Zealand is today. "

LOL you have to be joking. I am a royalist. I love the legacy, but I also see today, its a different world. You can embrace both, or shall I say, most can. There is nothing on the current flag that denotes NZ. For my parents, and later who were alive in WW2, I can certainly see their desire to retain the flag. You have to respect that.

My vote was the new flag, it failed, Im fine with that, but your arguments are bizarre. And I am probably more a royalist than you

You keep saying Canadian's thought their flag looked like a beach towel. I can't find any reference to this, can you point me to a supporting link?

I ask, because Canada's looks like a great flag to me, nothing like the rebel sport '60% off' beach accessory we were offered up as an alternative.

Dratsab

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#1520173 26-Mar-2016 20:11

tdgeek: My vote was the new flag, it failed, Im fine with that

You keep repeating this. As if you're trying to convince yourself.

Image result for "let it go already"

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#1520197 26-Mar-2016 21:15

tdgeek:
dafman:

This sums it up pretty well, me thinks
Nup
I voted for change, it failed, I should embrace this link to justify, but its embarrassing to read this

I think the article was quite well written and makes lots of sense in regards to why the referendum failed.

I know what would have been an excellent followup question on the second ballot. Do you want a flag change? Yes. No. Or yes but I dislike the flag on offer.

If it has been me I would have voted for the latter option.

Then followed up with.

Would you like it if the next time we had a crack at a flag change they just bundle it in with the next general election. Saves money and reduces the sense of urgency and rubbish argument our PM has around timing and once in a lifetime opportunity which is utter BS. If you're going to have a referendum why not ask more than one question as then you really find out what everyone thinks. Rather than a pointless yes no question.

You wouldn't go to your account for plumbing. So why collect a panel with effectively zero designers on it.

gzt

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#1520204 26-Mar-2016 21:40

tdgeek

Duncan Garner. He will do exactly the same thing to the next government/prime minister, and he did it to the previous from the opposite direction also ; ).

PhantomNVD

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#1520211 26-Mar-2016 22:04

I still want a link that shows this was a "binding referendum" please? (As someone mentioned earlier?)

I'm still awaiting a Tuesdsy announcement that they changing the flag anyway, as no referendum in this country is binding, and the government(s) seem to do whatever they please in their term of reign... As I stated back in page 4 of 5...

PhantomNVD

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#1520213 26-Mar-2016 22:06

PhantomNVD: I think they could at least have done a fern with some sort of koru curl, and made it semi realistic, but I basically decided to vote against whatever flag they came up with on principle, cos that should have been the FIRST referendum, if they actually wanted people onside, and could have probably save a huge amount of money when the people voted against it back then (as it seems likely they will still now)

I fully feel that they will simply ignore the referendum anyway and force the new flag in, in spite of a decisive vote against it - just as the stupid Sue Bradford slapping law went through to criminalise parents across the country for disciplining their children...

This country need binding referendums (with a minimum %age of votes) and until they show they will listen to the people, they are not respected by the people who they supposedly represent.

This is exactly what gives people like Trump their knee jerk support, anti the incumbent, rather than pro the opposition!

Sorry, it was page 6

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