Interesting video about Brexit

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#1581586 27-Jun-2016 22:31

George Osbourne (Chancellor of the Exchequer - Finance Minister in NuZild Speak) gave a speech before the markets opened in London this morning in which he said - and I quote

"On Thursday, the people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union.

That is not the outcome that I wanted or that I threw everything into campaigning for.

But Parliament agreed that there are issues of such constitutional significance that they cannot solely be left to politicians, and must be determined by the people in a referendum.

Now the people have spoken and we, in this democracy, must all accept that result and deliver on their instructions."

shk292

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#1581609 27-Jun-2016 22:56

Fred99:

Perhaps the lesson in this is the folly of referendums in post-factual democracies.

I don't think so. I don't even know what you mean by "post-factual democracy" and will file that in "words and phrases never to use unless I want to appear pretentious" along with "neoliberal".

The British people decided on a democratic process to decide a very important constitutional matter. A good proportion of them voted on it. A majority of those who voted want to walk back from being controlled by an undemocratic multinational structure. Now we just have to hope that a good way can be found to turn that democratic will into a practical solution.

tdgeek

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#1581612 27-Jun-2016 23:02

Geektastic:

Surely the time to debate the percentage required to carry the motion was BEFORE you had the referendum, not after.

After is just crying over spilt milk.

For sure. An election is an election, set the rules and live by them. Its like, we dandy win, so the % should be different? Perhaps in the general election that should be a 60%. Especially in the US

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#1581623 27-Jun-2016 23:09

shk292:

Fred99:

Perhaps the lesson in this is the folly of referendums in post-factual democracies.

I don't think so. I don't even know what you mean by "post-factual democracy" and will file that in "words and phrases never to use unless I want to appear pretentious" along with "neoliberal".

The British people decided on a democratic process to decide a very important constitutional matter. A good proportion of them voted on it. A majority of those who voted want to walk back from being controlled by an undemocratic multinational structure. Now we just have to hope that a good way can be found to turn that democratic will into a practical solution.

Well said. The thread is about Brexit, but in some cases its why the vote went against some posters and why thats dumb/wrong/[insert adjective here]

I feel that all the doom and gloom is hype. Things will settle, the rumblings in the news indicate trade will happen with the EU, its not the locked gate some seem to imagine.

Whatever UK exports, they will export, what they imports they will import. That is bound to alter, but not a lot I suggest.

Geektastic

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#1581625 27-Jun-2016 23:31

No one likes change. This is big change.

As I said some time ago, lots of people alive today do not have a memory of Britain outside the EU - they will have a hard time envisioning that future.

It is up to the leadership to help them, and everyone else, do what needs to be done. No one pretended there would be no work, no inconvenience and no downside at all to leaving.

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#1581630 28-Jun-2016 00:09

Geektastic:

As I said some time ago, lots of people alive today do not have a memory of Britain outside the EU - they will have a hard time envisioning that future.

Since most of the Brexit supporters are from the older generation, it kinda fits with your statement there. It looks like they are still living in their past glory (this is also the impression I got from the callers on the talkback).

I talked to a couple of mates today from the UK (both are less than 30). They seemed to think that the older generation and those who do not have kids should not vote in this referendum since they have no stake of what lies in the future. It seems harsh but I wonder if they actually raised a very good point there.

The younger generation are so used to multiculturalism, easy movement between european countries etc. Naturally, they tend to look at what is ahead of them rather than what is in the past (history books).

I personally don't have stake in Brexit. It will only affect me if UK disintegrate and we need to have another referendum for NZ flag! I hope Fire The Lazar will make it to the final -boo yah!

tdgeek

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#1581631 28-Jun-2016 00:57

nakedmolerat:

Geektastic:

As I said some time ago, lots of people alive today do not have a memory of Britain outside the EU - they will have a hard time envisioning that future.

Since most of the Brexit supporters are from the older generation, it kinda fits with your statement there. It looks like they are still living in their past glory (this is also the impression I got from the callers on the talkback).

I talked to a couple of mates today from the UK (both are less than 30). They seemed to think that the older generation and those who do not have kids should not vote in this referendum since they have no stake of what lies in the future. It seems harsh but I wonder if they actually raised a very good point there.

The younger generation are so used to multiculturalism, easy movement between european countries etc. Naturally, they tend to look at what is ahead of them rather than what is in the past (history books).

I personally don't have stake in Brexit. It will only affect me if UK disintegrate and we need to have another referendum for NZ flag! I hope Fire The Lazar will make it to the final -boo yah!

I read that the younger generation was 66/34. Clear majority, but 1/3 voted to leave. Some comments (not intimating yours) give the appearance that most young's voted to remain and most oldies voted to leave. That is how the vote swung, but its not young vs old, many of either persuasion voted the other way. I guess I could say the oldies want their country back, the younguns don't know any better than to keep what they are used to. Both arent great reasons.

Re don't allow oldies to vote, thats discrimination. Discrimination in order to artificially get a result. In fact that a bit of a trend here, wrong result, lets fudge it.

Like you I don't have any real time stake either way, I can see the immigration argument, I can see the free trade argument, and at the end of the day they will both trade, both will lose some conveniences, but still have some. Not enough to allow countries to wander away. The more I think about it, the more I think this is blowing out excessively. Its not like all or most doors will shut either way.Its like its feeding on itself.

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nakedmolerat

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#1581634 28-Jun-2016 06:01

The truth starts to appear now....

"So much for all those promises. Leading politicians in the campaign to pull the U.K. out of the European Union are back-pedaling fast on a number of pledges, particularly over extra money for health care."

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/27/news/economy/brexit-broken-promises/

Broken promises:

Campaign promise #1: We'll give EU cash to the National Health Service

Campaign promise #2: We'll take control of the UK's borders

Campaign promise #3: The economy will be fine

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#1581635 28-Jun-2016 06:50

nakedmolerat: The truth starts to appear now....

"So much for all those promises. Leading politicians in the campaign to pull the U.K. out of the European Union are back-pedaling fast on a number of pledges, particularly over extra money for health care."

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/27/news/economy/brexit-broken-promises/

Why am I not surprised

tdgeek

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#1581646 28-Jun-2016 07:35

Here s another take from a leave position

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/81520933/brexit-britain-will-always-be-part-of-europe--boris-johnson

nakedmolerat

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#1581648 28-Jun-2016 07:46

tdgeek:

Here s another take from a leave position

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/81520933/brexit-britain-will-always-be-part-of-europe--boris-johnson

It takes both sides to tango.

Germany, Italy and France have agreed that there should be no informal or formal talk until article 50 is invoked. Cameron refused to do so - and he will only hand over the reign in October.

Essentially, there will be 3 months period of uncertainty.

Edit: I think it is probably a good idea now to start looking at a cheap apartment in London for winter escape

tdgeek

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#1581651 28-Jun-2016 07:52

nakedmolerat:

tdgeek:

Here s another take from a leave position

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/81520933/brexit-britain-will-always-be-part-of-europe--boris-johnson

It takes both sides to tango.

Germany, Italy and France have agreed that there should be no informal or formal talk until article 50 is invoked. Cameron refused to do so - and he will only handed over the reign in October. Essentially, there will be 3 months period of uncertainty.

IMO overblown uncertainty. It could be seen as 3 months of commentary that may settle some issues. The Stuff article from Boris says that trade will continue, immigration will continue under a points system, and really, not a lot will change. But the UK can actually run itself that be run by EU laws and rules. Makes sense. The exit takes 2 years, the three months is not really too relevant. A time to settle down, answer some questions.

tdgeek

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#1581652 28-Jun-2016 07:55

nakedmolerat:

tdgeek:

Here s another take from a leave position

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/81520933/brexit-britain-will-always-be-part-of-europe--boris-johnson

It takes both sides to tango.

Germany, Italy and France have agreed that there should be no informal or formal talk until article 50 is invoked. Cameron refused to do so - and he will only handed over the reign in October.

Essentially, there will be 3 months period of uncertainty.

Edit: I think it is probably a good idea now to start looking at a cheap apartment in London for winter escape

I see the interest in UK people moving to NZ ramped up significantly at the NZ immigration website in terms of website accesses.

floydbloke

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#1581656 28-Jun-2016 08:02

Meanwhile, in living rooms around the world, folk are checking their retirement funds.

Did Eric Clapton really think she looked wonderful...or was it after the 15th outfit she tried on and he just wanted to get to the party and get a drink?

Rikkitic

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#1581675 28-Jun-2016 08:18

nakedmolerat:

Since most of the Brexit supporters are from the older generation, it kinda fits with your statement there. It looks like they are still living in their past glory (this is also the impression I got from the callers on the talkback).

I talked to a couple of mates today from the UK (both are less than 30). They seemed to think that the older generation and those who do not have kids should not vote in this referendum since they have no stake of what lies in the future. It seems harsh but I wonder if they actually raised a very good point there.

This point has already been emphatically raised but I strongly disagree. It is a slippery slope. If it is allowed once, it will be allowed again. How do you decide who is entitled to vote and who isn't? As soon as you take that step you no longer have a functioning democracy. If one group of voters disadvantages another, or makes stupid decisions for wrong reasons, swallow it and move on. That is the price of not having some tinpot dictator telling you what to do.

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