Do you want the flag to stay as it is?

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#1496717 21-Feb-2016 22:35

jeffnz:
turnin: No. Keep the flag.
Why:
1) the rest of the empire is already revolting. Costs for sick kiwis using britans NHS, non criminal kiwis being locked up in Aussie.
2) I see it for what it is a john key vanity project.
3) I feel it's condescending to have 2 referenda on this but not on matters of considerable importance such as tpp, gcsb, asset sales or debt repayment.

As far as democracy goes I don't have a problem with it. If the populous are too stupid to make the right decisions then all the more reason to focus on education.

what if the populous are right and you are wrong.

Then so be it.

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#1497467 22-Feb-2016 23:00

Sideface

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#1497535 23-Feb-2016 08:15

joker97: The Worst-Designed Thing You've Never Noticed

Executive Summary:

An interesting 18-minute talk about the essentials of flag design, with a North American emphasis.
No reference to the NZ flag.

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Paul1977

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#1497575 23-Feb-2016 09:43

Azzura:

If the silver fern isn't a national symbol representative of New Zealand.

Why is it used on New Zealand soldiers grave stones?

I don't believe it is official, but the Silver Fern is basically our defacto national emblem. And my understanding is that a national emblem rarely goes on the official flag. The fern represents NZ like the eagle represents the USA.

Irrespective of whether the fern is incorporated or not (I personally believe it shouldn't be), to me the chosen flag design has a "designed by committee" look to it.

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#1497601 23-Feb-2016 09:57

Paul1977: <snip> Irrespective of whether the fern is incorporated or not (I personally believe it shouldn't be), to me the chosen flag design has a "designed by committee" look to it.

This flag WAS designed by a committee [from: The Worst-Designed Thing You've Never Noticed, above] :

(click to view)

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tdgeek

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#1497616 23-Feb-2016 10:14

Paul1977:

Azzura:

If the silver fern isn't a national symbol representative of New Zealand.

Why is it used on New Zealand soldiers grave stones?

I don't believe it is official, but the Silver Fern is basically our defacto national emblem. And my understanding is that a national emblem rarely goes on the official flag. The fern represents NZ like the eagle represents the USA.

Irrespective of whether the fern is incorporated or not (I personally believe it shouldn't be), to me the chosen flag design has a "designed by committee" look to it.

Maple Leaf? The Canadian flag has had great reports in this thread and I see the Maple Leaf in the same vein as the fern. Maybe the Kiwi is more like the Maple Leaf, but the fern is right up there

Paul1977

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#1497630 23-Feb-2016 10:29

tdgeek:

Paul1977:

Azzura:

If the silver fern isn't a national symbol representative of New Zealand.

Why is it used on New Zealand soldiers grave stones?

I don't believe it is official, but the Silver Fern is basically our defacto national emblem. And my understanding is that a national emblem rarely goes on the official flag. The fern represents NZ like the eagle represents the USA.

Irrespective of whether the fern is incorporated or not (I personally believe it shouldn't be), to me the chosen flag design has a "designed by committee" look to it.

Maple Leaf? The Canadian flag has had great reports in this thread and I see the Maple Leaf in the same vein as the fern. Maybe the Kiwi is more like the Maple Leaf, but the fern is right up there

Was the Maple leaf a symbol of Canada before their flag change, or did it become synonymous because of there flag?

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mclean

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#1497638 23-Feb-2016 10:36

tdgeek: Maple Leaf? The Canadian flag has had great reports in this thread and I see the Maple Leaf in the same vein as the fern. Maybe the Kiwi is more like the Maple Leaf, but the fern is right up there.

Interestingly the Canadians have retained both the union jack and the red ensign (similar to our red ensign) as official flags, and their use is mandated for appropriate occasions, in recognition of the fact that the Queen of England is their head of state (as she is ours).

Hammerer

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#1497646 23-Feb-2016 10:50

Sideface:

joker97: The Worst-Designed Thing You've Never Noticed

Executive Summary:

An interesting 18-minute talk about the essentials of flag design, with a North American emphasis.
No reference to the NZ flag.

This quote, at 13 minutes, seems like it is tailor-made for the NZ situation:

That's discouraging enough to make you think that good design and democracy simply do not go together.

Rikkitic

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#1497771 23-Feb-2016 12:30

Paul1977:

Was the Maple leaf a symbol of Canada before their flag change, or did it become synonymous because of there flag?

The maple leaf has long been a symbol of Canada. I think it may come from their wonderful maple syrup.

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jeffnz

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#1505649 3-Mar-2016 18:49

Paul1977:

Azzura:

If the silver fern isn't a national symbol representative of New Zealand.

Why is it used on New Zealand soldiers grave stones?

I don't believe it is official, but the Silver Fern is basically our defacto national emblem. And my understanding is that a national emblem rarely goes on the official flag. The fern represents NZ like the eagle represents the USA.

Irrespective of whether the fern is incorporated or not (I personally believe it shouldn't be), to me the chosen flag design has a "designed by committee" look to it.

I believe the reference to the fern on the graves was also meant to show that the ill informed overused quote that New Zealanders fought and died for the flag is incorrect.

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Hammerer

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#1505653 3-Mar-2016 19:01

jeffnz:

I believe the reference to the fern on the graves was also meant to show that the ill informed overused quote that New Zealanders fought and died for the flag is incorrect.

I doubt it. Perhaps your reading of the reference is correct. But the logic of your argument appears faulty.

Nobody has presented any evidence that the soldiers followed a silver fern instead of the flag. After they died they didn't follow anything so the silver fern on their gravestone seems irrelevant to what they followed.

jeffnz

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#1505668 3-Mar-2016 20:00

Hammerer:

jeffnz:

I believe the reference to the fern on the graves was also meant to show that the ill informed overused quote that New Zealanders fought and died for the flag is incorrect.

I doubt it. Perhaps your reading of the reference is correct. But the logic of your argument appears faulty.

Nobody has presented any evidence that the soldiers followed a silver fern instead of the flag. After they died they didn't follow anything so the silver fern on their gravestone seems irrelevant to what they followed.

Sorry don't get your train of thought, I never said they followed either.

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MikeB4

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#1505672 3-Mar-2016 20:20

Hammerer:
jeffnz:

I believe the reference to the fern on the graves was also meant to show that the ill informed overused quote that New Zealanders fought and died for the flag is incorrect.

I doubt it. Perhaps your reading of the reference is correct. But the logic of your argument appears faulty.

Nobody has presented any evidence that the soldiers followed a silver fern instead of the flag. After they died they didn't follow anything so the silver fern on their gravestone seems irrelevant to what they followed.

I have two sons , four nephews, brother in law, sister in law, father, father in law, five uncles who have served. They all say the Silver Fern and the Kiwi were the symbol that meant the most, the symbol that clearly showed who they were and why they served. The flag was only there at night and morning at bases, it never featured in the field or in harms way.

mattwnz

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#1505680 3-Mar-2016 20:39

MikeB4:
Hammerer:

jeffnz:

I believe the reference to the fern on the graves was also meant to show that the ill informed overused quote that New Zealanders fought and died for the flag is incorrect.

I doubt it. Perhaps your reading of the reference is correct. But the logic of your argument appears faulty.

Nobody has presented any evidence that the soldiers followed a silver fern instead of the flag. After they died they didn't follow anything so the silver fern on their gravestone seems irrelevant to what they followed.

I have two sons , four nephews, brother in law, sister in law, father, father in law, five uncles who have served. They all say the Silver Fern and the Kiwi were the symbol that meant the most, the symbol that clearly showed who they were and why they served. The flag was only there at night and morning at bases, it never featured in the field or in harms way.

The alternative flags fern is (a) not silver but white, the same white as surrounding the red stars. (b) Is a poor representation of a silver fern and looks more like a skeleton. At least they could have had the fern design refined so it was high quality. But the flawed process didn't allow this. The All blacks silver fern was professional done and refined. If I was to chose between the two flags, it is no doubt to stay with the current one. Even the blue is a horrible light blue, and why are the stars red? If they want some link to the old one, why keep the red stars. It would be better to keep the blue of the old flag, and have white stars instead. In a month when it is over and people vote in teh old one, it will be 15 mil down the drain, and the designers get nothing. When infact it should have been design led, where professional designers should have been commissioned to design and chose the flag.

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