Does NZ need better gun laws?

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#1120358 2-Sep-2014 11:13

DravidDavid:
Geektastic:
Try Action Handgun or Speed Handgun - or even Cowboy Action. No static firing positions there - especially so in Action, which is a course of fire not unlike you see in military training from which it is derived. Lots of running, diving, ducking, shooting from cover and so on.

Haha, I like action shooting, but I wouldn't dare try diving and rolling. I'll admit, that's probably a situation where I'd end up shooting myself in the head!

Meh. As long as the weapon is holstered and fully functional in terms of safety etc you should be fine. Soldiers and police have to do it all the time and the number who get shot by AD in those situations is so small as to be statistically irrelevant. Were that not so, the US gun makers would be sued from now until Doomsday for starters!

I watched someone do an Action course in the US with a pair of fully auto Glock 18's with no trouble.

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#1120365 2-Sep-2014 11:21

Geektastic:
DravidDavid:
Geektastic:
Try Action Handgun or Speed Handgun - or even Cowboy Action. No static firing positions there - especially so in Action, which is a course of fire not unlike you see in military training from which it is derived. Lots of running, diving, ducking, shooting from cover and so on.

Haha, I like action shooting, but I wouldn't dare try diving and rolling. I'll admit, that's probably a situation where I'd end up shooting myself in the head!

Meh. As long as the weapon is holstered and fully functional in terms of safety etc you should be fine. Soldiers and police have to do it all the time and the number who get shot by AD in those situations is so small as to be statistically irrelevant. Were that not so, the US gun makers would be sued from now until Doomsday for starters!

I watched someone do an Action course in the US with a pair of fully auto Glock 18's with no trouble.

A Glock 18C...I can only dream!

Members from various airsoft clubs attended a meeting regarding the legality of fully automatic airsoft rifles. They and other clubs/passionate people managed to convince a board that fully automatic airsoft rifles and pistols should be allowed. So at least I can own the airsoft equivalent legally! I wonder how much harder it would be to change gun laws.

It's easier to import fully automatic airsoft rifles now, because of the law change. Some of these airsoft rifles are banned in the states because of how easy it is to exchange the internals for real steel parts and turn it in to an actual firearm.

heylinb4nz

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#1120381 2-Sep-2014 11:35

nathan:

A shooting - luckily this is a rare event here. How many people in NZ have gun licenses? then how many of those are licensed for pistols? Very few.

250,000 licence holders

6000 odd pistol licences

MaxLV

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#1120383 2-Sep-2014 11:37

Geektastic:
MaxLV:
DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself. It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure. Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first. A firearm is always a last resort.

Slightly different? Competition shooting = static target static firing position.

Real life 'situation' fast moving target, and fast moving firing position and probably 'collateral' obstructions to avoid hitting. Or does competition shooting now include moving targets and firing positions?

Try Action Handgun or Speed Handgun - or even Cowboy Action. No static firing positions there - especially so in Action, which is a course of fire not unlike you see in military training from which it is derived. Lots of running, diving, ducking, shooting from cover and so on.

Still not a real life situation is it. It's a controlled environment.

heylinb4nz

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#1120385 2-Sep-2014 11:38

jonathan18:
Geektastic:
nathan: this is NZ, not the wild west. I would like to think the police have better training and mental tests than the public, and Police only have access to firearms while they are at work

How many of the licensed pistol holders in NZ are for pistol clubs? Most I would imagine. Your typical holder is into pistol target shooting, not a Glock for taking someone out.

The Police ARE the general public who have joined the police. There are many members of the general public who could pass the mental tests and training for being a police firearms user - they just happen to prefer being accountants or whatever.

Your logic of "police carry guns; police must get training to carry guns; therefore Joe and Josephine Blogs can carry/conceal guns if they get the same training" is plain bizzare to me.

Police officers are given access to guns as a tool to assist them execute their roles as the enforcement arm of the state and to protect its citizens etc. Whether even they now have too easy access to guns is a debatable point, but this reasoning for allowing members of the public to carry guns in public is quite scary.

Luckily I believe a majority of NZers will resist any attempt to take this country's gun laws down the US route - and I'd imagine many of these will be gun users such as flow, whose response here I found rational and nicely nuanced, providing a balance to some of the scary ideas espoused elsewhere in this thread.

You obviously haven't witness police training first hand, the trigger time and limited training they get is scary....and you would expect them to show up with a Glock and\or AR15 and be effective....SCARY !!!.

heylinb4nz

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#1120388 2-Sep-2014 11:41

MaxLV:
Geektastic:
MaxLV:
DravidDavid:
KiwiNZ: With a pistol you would struggle to hit anything, even the other side of the lounge.

Speak for yourself. It doesn't sound like you've ever fired a pistol before.

Competition shooting runs up your adrenaline to maximum levels that's for sure. Sure it might be slightly different in the real world...But like I said, common sense would be alternative action first. A firearm is always a last resort.

Slightly different? Competition shooting = static target static firing position.

Real life 'situation' fast moving target, and fast moving firing position and probably 'collateral' obstructions to avoid hitting. Or does competition shooting now include moving targets and firing positions?

Try Action Handgun or Speed Handgun - or even Cowboy Action. No static firing positions there - especially so in Action, which is a course of fire not unlike you see in military training from which it is derived. Lots of running, diving, ducking, shooting from cover and so on.

Still not a real life situation is it. It's a controlled environment.

How often to Police or Army recruits (or even seasoned officers) get trainining from real life situations ?? who would you rather show up to deal with an armed shooter in a WINZ office ?

a) a cop who last fired his Glock 8 months ago at 8 meters distance
b) a competition shooter who most likely fired 500-1000 rounds last month

???

Short of sending people to Afghanistan training will occur in controlled environments.

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DravidDavid

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#1120411 2-Sep-2014 12:12

Relevent: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11317687

mattwnz

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#1120486 2-Sep-2014 13:58

t92300: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29008671 this guy managed to kill 3 and stab another 3 before he killed himself, how many more could he have got if he didnt kill himself?

Depends on the environment and the number of people around you. But if it had been a gun, it could have been multiples more.

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#1120503 2-Sep-2014 14:23

mattwnz:
t92300: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29008671 this guy managed to kill 3 and stab another 3 before he killed himself, how many more could he have got if he didnt kill himself?

Depends on the environment and the number of people around you. But if it had been a gun, it could have been multiples more.

Or, if someone else had been armed and shot him, multiples less...

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#1120505 2-Sep-2014 14:24

I read that police have 'revealed' the amazing fact that the man did not have a FAC.

No **** Sherlock! He lived in his car....! I can just see the Arms Officer's response to that fact.

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#1120506 2-Sep-2014 14:26

heylinb4nz:
jonathan18:
Geektastic:
nathan: this is NZ, not the wild west. I would like to think the police have better training and mental tests than the public, and Police only have access to firearms while they are at work

How many of the licensed pistol holders in NZ are for pistol clubs? Most I would imagine. Your typical holder is into pistol target shooting, not a Glock for taking someone out.

The Police ARE the general public who have joined the police. There are many members of the general public who could pass the mental tests and training for being a police firearms user - they just happen to prefer being accountants or whatever.

Your logic of "police carry guns; police must get training to carry guns; therefore Joe and Josephine Blogs can carry/conceal guns if they get the same training" is plain bizzare to me.

Police officers are given access to guns as a tool to assist them execute their roles as the enforcement arm of the state and to protect its citizens etc. Whether even they now have too easy access to guns is a debatable point, but this reasoning for allowing members of the public to carry guns in public is quite scary.

Luckily I believe a majority of NZers will resist any attempt to take this country's gun laws down the US route - and I'd imagine many of these will be gun users such as flow, whose response here I found rational and nicely nuanced, providing a balance to some of the scary ideas espoused elsewhere in this thread.

You obviously haven't witness police training first hand, the trigger time and limited training they get is scary....and you would expect them to show up with a Glock and\or AR15 and be effective....SCARY !!!.

And they train on the same ranges as we sports shooters use - because I have been there when they have the range booked!!

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#1120511 2-Sep-2014 14:28

DravidDavid:
Geektastic:
DravidDavid:
Geektastic:
Try Action Handgun or Speed Handgun - or even Cowboy Action. No static firing positions there - especially so in Action, which is a course of fire not unlike you see in military training from which it is derived. Lots of running, diving, ducking, shooting from cover and so on.

Haha, I like action shooting, but I wouldn't dare try diving and rolling. I'll admit, that's probably a situation where I'd end up shooting myself in the head!

Meh. As long as the weapon is holstered and fully functional in terms of safety etc you should be fine. Soldiers and police have to do it all the time and the number who get shot by AD in those situations is so small as to be statistically irrelevant. Were that not so, the US gun makers would be sued from now until Doomsday for starters!

I watched someone do an Action course in the US with a pair of fully auto Glock 18's with no trouble.

A Glock 18C...I can only dream!

Members from various airsoft clubs attended a meeting regarding the legality of fully automatic airsoft rifles. They and other clubs/passionate people managed to convince a board that fully automatic airsoft rifles and pistols should be allowed. So at least I can own the airsoft equivalent legally! I wonder how much harder it would be to change gun laws.

It's easier to import fully automatic airsoft rifles now, because of the law change. Some of these airsoft rifles are banned in the states because of how easy it is to exchange the internals for real steel parts and turn it in to an actual firearm.

I did fire it just for fun.

Utterly pointless really unless you think 'spray & pray' is your best option!!

gzt

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#1120565 2-Sep-2014 16:10

Geektastic: I read that police have 'revealed' the amazing fact that the man did not have a FAC.

No **** Sherlock! He lived in his car....! I can just see the Arms Officer's response to that fact.

Confirmed no license either:

http://mobile.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.php?c_id=1&objectid=11317725

But storage wise it could have been elsewhere regardless.

heylinb4nz

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#1120568 2-Sep-2014 16:23

Geektastic:
heylinb4nz:
jonathan18:
Geektastic:
nathan: this is NZ, not the wild west. I would like to think the police have better training and mental tests than the public, and Police only have access to firearms while they are at work

How many of the licensed pistol holders in NZ are for pistol clubs? Most I would imagine. Your typical holder is into pistol target shooting, not a Glock for taking someone out.

The Police ARE the general public who have joined the police. There are many members of the general public who could pass the mental tests and training for being a police firearms user - they just happen to prefer being accountants or whatever.

Your logic of "police carry guns; police must get training to carry guns; therefore Joe and Josephine Blogs can carry/conceal guns if they get the same training" is plain bizzare to me.

Police officers are given access to guns as a tool to assist them execute their roles as the enforcement arm of the state and to protect its citizens etc. Whether even they now have too easy access to guns is a debatable point, but this reasoning for allowing members of the public to carry guns in public is quite scary.

Luckily I believe a majority of NZers will resist any attempt to take this country's gun laws down the US route - and I'd imagine many of these will be gun users such as flow, whose response here I found rational and nicely nuanced, providing a balance to some of the scary ideas espoused elsewhere in this thread.

You obviously haven't witness police training first hand, the trigger time and limited training they get is scary....and you would expect them to show up with a Glock and\or AR15 and be effective....SCARY !!!.

And they train on the same ranges as we sports shooters use - because I have been there when they have the range booked!!

Ditto, I remember once I took a mate shooting while AOS were on our 50 meter range at other end of the complex. He quoted "Should those be left out like that ?". Pointing to the AOS van with 3 unsecured bushmasters in the open boot.....free MSSAs anyone ?

As for defensive \ offensive training for regular officers, simply draw, walk backwards while emptying magazines. ie pretty much the only training you can do when afforded a few mags of ammo per person.

matisyahu

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#1120918 3-Sep-2014 05:40

mattwnz: With what has happened today http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10446709/Live-Police-hunt-gunman-in-Ashburton and all the similar tragedies in recent past , I am in the belief that NZ gun laws could do with a lot of updating. I am kind of sick about hearing these sorts of stories and how they keep happening. I believe NZ has one of the biggest gun ownership rates in the world, but it is relatively easy for people to get a license. I believe laser ownership is now even more restricted than gun ownership. What are other peoples thoughts?

What there needs to be is more money spent on mental health issues and for the welfare system to be flexible enough to provide assistance to people based on their unique circumstances rather than if they tick the right number of boxes. Guns are merely a symptom of a larger problem - address the larger problem and you'll address the gun violence.

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People's Stick'"

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