GCSB Protest March

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#864987 24-Jul-2013 12:17

Klipspringer:

For all 4 of those points you have listed, I already have no control of that data. Its out there already and in the hands of third party companies, banks, etc ...

The key point in your comment, for me, is the IES.

My banking information is in at least two banks.

No single party knows about my banking.

My telecommunications is the same. It's spread over a range of providers.

What is being proposed here is giving a single party the ability to capture my information and share it with overseas parties which we have no control over.

That is simply not acceptable to me and shouldn't be to you.

Neither government nor private business should be given the right to capture me in my communications world.

Don't make the mistake of getting me wrong.

I have no issue with the Police going to 2Degrees (my mobile provider) and asking them to hand over a copy of my phone calls for the last x day/months, because I'm subject to question.

If they also feel the need to go to my bank and have the same conversation, that's also ok with me.

But in that case my bank and 2Degrees staff will both know I'm subject to investigation.

What I have a problem with is the government being able to just intercept my information with out over sight.

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DonGould

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#864990 24-Jul-2013 12:30

SaltyNZ: That's actually an interesting point.

Yes I think so.

SaltyNZ: In theory judges are impartial and also have a better working grasp of the law,

Our experience with the Kim Dotcom cause has aleady shown that judges are not impartial with at least one standing down from the issue, or was that the Skynet legislation, I can't recall.

Judges don't have a good technology understanding, so are naturally bias to the law.

I suggest that MP's are less bias in either direction.

SaltyNZ: whereas politicians are elected and therefore have some sort of electoral axe to grind.

Agreed.

That is why I said that all party leaders and independants should be on a board and all free to speak in the house as they choose.

This is about over sight.

At MP is not going to compromise the national security at the expense of his job unless it's clear to them that there is something very wrong and they're going to look like the good guy sorting it out.

SaltyNZ: Perhaps, in the case of a routine (i.e. not urgent - not lives in immediate danger) warrant, it should be a panel of three; a judge, a minister, and someone independent like the Privacy Commissioner or possibly a completely new post.

MP, Judge, me.

My mobile number is 0211140699, my email is in under my name to my left.

I'm not suggesting that the police contact all 50 members for a warrant. 3 should be enough.

I'm just as avalible as anyone of the folk you mention.

We're in a day and age of mobile technology. There is no reason for a court house any more and no reason why 3 MPs from 3 parties can't be contacted to get permission to get data.

I do think that the police should be able to request a provider to start holding data pending a warrant.

All 50 members of the security board should be advised within 1 hour though. That is not unreasonable with todays technology.

D

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#865399 24-Jul-2013 22:10

Allyour digital information is being collected right now, either by private companies or governments.

Whether the GCSB bill passes or not, it will still be gathered. Regardless of any protests or otherwise.

The systems running now pass the information from state to state.

Which is good for redundancy and backups.

The agencies can also become self funding due to fore knowledge of transactions and deals.

This also enables stable government, as any opposition can be exposed for their weaknesses or any that oppose the government.

The untold benefit for the people, is that they can be exposed to products and services, that they wouldn't have known about.

Monitoring all communications makes all people safer from terrorists, and people who have issues with taking responsibility for their own actions.

Your are as free as the system says you are.

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#865416 24-Jul-2013 22:28

Woolly: Allyour digital information is being collected right now, either by private companies or governments.

Whether the GCSB bill passes or not, it will still be gathered. Regardless of any protests or otherwise.

The systems running now pass the information from state to state.

Which is good for redundancy and backups.

You're post is a joke, right?

The agencies can also become self funding due to fore knowledge of transactions and deals.

Sounds like insider trading (Which is illegal FYI). And what about when the individuals running those agencies start insider trading for their own profit too?

This also enables stable government, as any opposition can be exposed for their weaknesses or any that oppose the government.

You mean, it allows governments to become dictatorships, able to shut down anyone who might expose their corruption.

The untold benefit for the people, is that they can be exposed to products and services, that they wouldn't have known about.

So the goverment will start sending us SPAM, too?

Monitoring all communications makes all people safer from terrorists, and people who have issues with taking responsibility for their own actions.

What terrorists?

Your are as free as the system says you are.

And what about when 'the system' gets it wrong?

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#865418 24-Jul-2013 22:34

Oh god, my eyes, my eyes. Why did I open this thread. I'm not going to participate in this thread except to say that if you are not opposed to the bill you are flat out stupid.

Might see some of the rest of you at the protest..

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blakamin

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#865451 24-Jul-2013 23:05

NZtechfreak: Oh god, my eyes, my eyes. Why did I open this thread. I'm not going to participate in this thread except to say that if you are not opposed to the bill you are flat out stupid.

Might see some of the rest of you at the protest..

Don't look at the ISP porn thread then!

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Woolly

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#865469 24-Jul-2013 23:25

The System doesn't do wrong or right, it just is what it is.

bradstewart

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#865470 24-Jul-2013 23:27

Woolly: The System doesn't do wrong or right, it just is what it is.

Not sure if bad troll or...

dickytim

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#865497 25-Jul-2013 06:55

Not going to protest.

I am happy with the bill.

I post my life on forums, facebook etc. for the world to see anyway.

Klipspringer

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#865558 25-Jul-2013 08:43

ajobbins:
What if you were planning a rally in protest to a bill the government was proposing that you didn't agree with (such as is the topic of this thread). Perfectly legitimate, law abiding event. But someone in the governemnt wants to silence you because they want to get the bill through. All of a sudden you're locked up on 'national security' grounds because the government picked up through your emails that you were planning to be involved. You haven't broken the law, but someone in a position of power wants to shut you up, and laws like this give them legal means to do so without explanation or recourse.

Good point.

But I don't buy into your "government wants to silence" theory.

Surely if that can happen, it will happen already based on data which is already publicly available from other places. Ie, facebook, twitter, blogs etc ... All the identity information for those sort of sites can already be requested by government. Some of it is already out there and there is no need to request anything. We have seen many cases already of the likes of google and facebook being forced to hand identity information over.

Good example, the facebook pakeha party page. Surely it would be in governments favour to silence them? Everybody already knows everything about who has setup the page, who owns it etc ... The guy even made himself public. Everybody that comments makes himself/herself public.... All those racist remarks. Nothing is happening to silence them. What about all the "family first" websites. Why is government not silencing them? What about their members?

IP Addresses, usernames emails etc of posts on this very forum are not safe from anybody. The website owner can already be forced to supply identity information if its requested. If the government wants to silence, well the means to do it is already there. This law changes nothing.

freitasm

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#865561 25-Jul-2013 08:46

blakamin:
NZtechfreak: Oh god, my eyes, my eyes. Why did I open this thread. I'm not going to participate in this thread except to say that if you are not opposed to the bill you are flat out stupid.

Might see some of the rest of you at the protest..

Don't look at the ISP porn thread then!

I just replied in that thread. I feel so libertarian these days.

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freitasm

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#865564 25-Jul-2013 08:51

Klipspringer: Good example, the facebook pakeha party page. Surely it would be in governments favour to silence them? Everybody already knows everything about who has setup the page, who owns it etc ... The guy even made himself public. Everybody that comments makes himself/herself public.... All those racist remarks. Nothing is happening to silence them. What about all the "family first" websites. Why is government not silencing them? What about their members?

Nothing is happening because our government is not a dystopian as described by Adam, but who knows? One day that Pakeha Party might register. One day in ten years they might get enough votes. Then one day they might get a few seats. Then one day they might have some supporters in the Defence Forces. Then one day there may be a coup and then one day the government in place is not as restrained as the one we have today.

Just look at history. Tyrants worked their way up like that. From grassroots movements. Looks at Egypt today. Look at Syria. The comunist Party in soviet Russia. How many people did Lenin, Trotsky kill, making way for Stalin? All in name of the state. Forty years ago Afghanistan was thriving. Look what happened after Islamism (political Islam, not the religion) took over. Governments changes.

It's up to us citizens to make sure that governments don't change to bad and up to us to make sure the existing government doesn't intrude beyond the minimum absolutely necessary. It's up to us to decide what the government can and should do.

Citizenship is participation. Accepting whatever a government says without questioning is idiocracy.

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#865569 25-Jul-2013 09:03

freitasm:
Klipspringer: Good example, the facebook pakeha party page. Surely it would be in governments favour to silence them? Everybody already knows everything about who has setup the page, who owns it etc ... The guy even made himself public. Everybody that comments makes himself/herself public.... All those racist remarks. Nothing is happening to silence them. What about all the "family first" websites. Why is government not silencing them? What about their members?

Nothing is happening because our government is not a dystopian as described by Adam, but who knows? One day that Pakeha Party might register. One day in ten years they might get enough votes. Then one day they might get a few seats. Then one day they might have some supporters in the Defence Forces. Then one day there may be a coup and then one day the government in place is not as restrained as the one we have today.

Just look at history. Tyrants worked their way up like that. From grassroots movements. Looks at Egypt today. Look at Syria. The comunist Party in soviet Russia. How many people did Lenin, Trotsky kill, making way for Stalin? All in name of the state. Forty years ago Afghanistan was thriving. Look what happened after Islamism (political Islam, not the religion) took over. Governments changes.

It's up to us citizens to make sure that governments don't change to bad and up to us to make sure the existing government doesn't intrude beyond the minimum absolutely necessary. It's up to us to decide what the government can and should do.

Citizenship is participation. Accepting whatever a government says without questioning is idiocracy.

The reality is if a political party of that nature were to gain power they would not worry about using statutes to empower their actions they would just do it. It could be said that the proposed legislation could prevent it reaching that point in the first place as any coup planning could be intercepted.
I don't fully agree with the proposal I also don't buy into the scare and dread scenarios they tend to make rational people ignore the issue completely.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#865604 25-Jul-2013 09:35

Governments in the past in NZ have been given far greater powers, the Public Safety Conservation Act springs to mind, if that was being proposed now there would be huge opposition. It gave the Cabinet (not Parliament) wide powers to declare states of emergency and make any laws it deemed needed to maintain public safety. iT was first used in 1939 at the beginning of the Second World War, and then terribly during the 1951 waterfront strikes. It was repealed circa 1986.

Was it abused?, to an extent, however they were exceptional circumstances, (A) During Global war and (B) during a strike that could have bankrupted New Zealand. The government could have used it during the anti Springbok protest but didn't which demonstrates that NZ governments can and will act with restraint.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Klipspringer

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#865610 25-Jul-2013 09:39

freitasm:
Klipspringer: Good example, the facebook pakeha party page. Surely it would be in governments favour to silence them? Everybody already knows everything about who has setup the page, who owns it etc ... The guy even made himself public. Everybody that comments makes himself/herself public.... All those racist remarks. Nothing is happening to silence them. What about all the "family first" websites. Why is government not silencing them? What about their members?

Nothing is happening because our government is not a dystopian as described by Adam, but who knows? One day that Pakeha Party might register. One day in ten years they might get enough votes. Then one day they might get a few seats. Then one day they might have some supporters in the Defence Forces. Then one day there may be a coup and then one day the government in place is not as restrained as the one we have today.

Just look at history. Tyrants worked their way up like that. From grassroots movements. Looks at Egypt today. Look at Syria. The comunist Party in soviet Russia. How many people did Lenin, Trotsky kill, making way for Stalin? All in name of the state. Forty years ago Afghanistan was thriving. Look what happened after Islamism (political Islam, not the religion) took over. Governments changes.

It's up to us citizens to make sure that governments don't change to bad and up to us to make sure the existing government doesn't intrude beyond the minimum absolutely necessary. It's up to us to decide what the government can and should do.

Citizenship is participation. Accepting whatever a government says without questioning is idiocracy.

So all this is based on what "might" happen?

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