Espresso Coffee - Confused over a double shot

Forums › Off topic › Espresso Coffee - Confused over a double shot

alisam

878 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 83

#323185 4-Nov-2025 10:09

I have looked at one or two online articles but am still confused.

I use a 58mm double portafilter (VBM Domobar Super - 20 years old), with a double basket.

I nearly always make 2 long blacks using the above.

I do not weight the coffee or use a timer (I rely on counting 1001, 1002 etc up to about 1028 as soon as the machine is started).

What range should the espresso coffee volume (ml) be for each cup, before water is added?

PC: Dell Inspiron 16 5640 (Windows 11 Home), Dell Inspiron 7591 2n1 (Windows 11 Pro), HP ProBook 470G1 (Windows 10 Pro), Intel NUC7I5BNH (Zorin)
Net: Grandstream 1 x GWN7062 Router, 1 x GWN7665 Access Point
Storage: Synology DS216play NAS, 2 x 6TB
Media: 3 x Amazon FireTV. Echo, Dot, Spot
TV: 2 x Samsung H6400 55" LED TV, Panasonic TH-P50G10Z 50" Plasma TV
Mobile: Samsung Galaxy A52 5G
Wearable: Gear S3 Frontier

1 | 2

537 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 206

ID Verified

Lifetime subscriber

#3430677 4-Nov-2025 10:22

To your preferred taste.

johno1234

3353 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2843

#3430679 4-Nov-2025 10:24

And if someone meddles with the grinder settings it all goes out the window.

tweake

2642 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1137

#3430687 4-Nov-2025 10:41

alisam:

I have looked at one or two online articles but am still confused.

I use a 58mm double portafilter (VBM Domobar Super - 20 years old), with a double basket.

I nearly always make 2 long blacks using the above.

I do not weight the coffee or use a timer (I rely on counting 1001, 1002 etc up to about 1028 as soon as the machine is started).

What range should the espresso coffee volume (ml) be for each cup, before water is added?

i don't think its a question that can be answered.

first of all, what you call a long black can be a whole lot different to the next person. there is no hard and fast rules on what a certain style of coffee is. there is usually an accepted range, but that can vary from country to country etc.

then as your not measuring anything, your output is going to be variable no matter what answer you get given.

i would start with weighing the coffee and also the water. you might need to change coffee cups to get a scale to fit in the machine. coffee scales include a timer, which is very useful for dialing in a machine. james hoffman has plenty of good info.

BMarquis

465 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 578

Trusted

Chorus

Lifetime subscriber

#3430690 4-Nov-2025 10:50

Rough rule of thumb...

Double shot = 18g of ground coffee.
you want 2x that weight output (36g) as the resultant shot.
You want that 36g to take about 30-35 seconds

Then add hot water to your taste.

alisam

878 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 83

#3430704 4-Nov-2025 11:25

tweake:

i don't think its a question that can be answered.

first of all, what you call a long black can be a whole lot different to the next person. there is no hard and fast rules on what a certain style of coffee is. there is usually an accepted range, but that can vary from country to country etc.

then as your not measuring anything, your output is going to be variable no matter what answer you get given.

i would start with weighing the coffee and also the water. you might need to change coffee cups to get a scale to fit in the machine. coffee scales include a timer, which is very useful for dialing in a machine. james hoffman has plenty of good info.

The video on steaming milk was excellent.

The video on his daily routine, at first, was ridiculous and then realised it was all make believe. The comments suggest an April Fools joke.

sen8or

1897 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1402

#3431187 5-Nov-2025 11:56

A double shot of espresso from 18g (+/-) should produce a total of about 50-60ml of espresso and it should take 20-30 seconds for that to occur. If you are splitting a shot between 2 cups, thats 25-30mm per cup. Depending on how strong you like your coffee, I would think that its ok for a total liquid volume of around 150ml (so a standard tulip cup or small cappuccino cup or similar with 20-30mm of espresso and 120-130mm of water/milk). Much more total volume than that and it may be a bit weak.

Don't just run more water through the portafilter to get the total volume, either use the hot water spout from your machine or from a boiled jug or similar. If you just let the water flow through the portafilter, it will result in over-extracted shot (think nasty bitter).

I've had it said that when looking at your shot, when you notice it start to rats tail (rather than flow down, it starts to twist), thats when to stop the shot (this is the start of blonding - over extraction). Unsure on that as it was just one persons opinion (who was selling machines).

Mighty Ape

Shop now at Mighty Ape (affiliate link).

johno1234

3353 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2843

#3431249 5-Nov-2025 15:23

I have a cheap Barista Max coffee machine. I fiddled with the grinder to set the taste and count to 25 while I grind which fills the double portafilter and I press the two-shot button. It seems to make a decent coffee which I then desecrate with foamed milk. I am no coffee expert but reckon my effort is just as good as the barista one from the popular cafe next to the office.

sen8or

1897 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1402

#3431261 5-Nov-2025 15:53

In order of importance for a "cafe quality" drink (in my humble opinion anyway) -

Freshness of beans - These are ideal to drink 1 - 3 weeks after roasting (assuming proper storage). Too soon after coffee has roasted and the beans can be gassy and the flavour not yet developed (grassy or sour). After about 3 weeks, even with airtight storage, and they start to degrade. Beans from the supermarket, even if they are "local" (Cafe LeFarre, Hummingbird etc) are likely to be at least a few weeks old before they hit the shelves (its why they put a best before date on them, not a roasted on date). If buying from supermarket, look for the best before date that is furthest away, thats your best chance.

Carrying on from freshness of the beans - freshness of the grind. This is even more important than the beans. Once ground, there is a lot more surface area for oxygen to interact with the coffee and the oxidation process is rapidly multiplied. Ground coffee has a lifespan measured in seconds / minutes, not days/weeks. Stale grind coffee will not extract properly, will taste flat, limited or no crema.

Quality of the grind - a little less important than the freshness, a cheap burr grinder can do a decent enough job on appliances (Breville, Sunbeam etc). The can be found wanting with higher end machines. This is a bit of a coffee snob approach, but personally I have found better grinders give more layers to the flavour. Each person is quite different here.

Finally - the machine. Laws of diminishing returns absolutely apply, my first espresso machine (Sunbeam EM6910) I thought produced really good coffee (and it did), my previous HX machine (Astoria) I thought produced a slightly better result, but my current one (Profitec Pro700) is better again, far more than the step from the sunbeam to the astoria. but, it was a pricey investment, but coffee is my main vice, so worth it for me, maybe not worth it for others.

tweake

2642 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1137

#3431282 5-Nov-2025 16:38

a small tip, freeze any unopened packets. that helps stop them going rancid. i get a few fresh packets delivered (free shipping) and freeze them. support the specialty roasters rather than the supermarket rubbish. tho some actually supply local supermarket, so you can get really good coffee at supermarkets if you know what your looking for.

i can't see the point of preground coffee beans. whats the odds of your setup matching their grind size. i found grind size and quality makes the biggest difference.

Handle9

11926 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9677

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3431287 5-Nov-2025 17:05

sen8or:

Quality of the grind - a little less important than the freshness, a cheap burr grinder can do a decent enough job on appliances (Breville, Sunbeam etc). The can be found wanting with higher end machines. This is a bit of a coffee snob approach, but personally I have found better grinders give more layers to the flavour. Each person is quite different here.

Finally - the machine. Laws of diminishing returns absolutely apply, my first espresso machine (Sunbeam EM6910) I thought produced really good coffee (and it did), my previous HX machine (Astoria) I thought produced a slightly better result, but my current one (Profitec Pro700) is better again, far more than the step from the sunbeam to the astoria. but, it was a pricey investment, but coffee is my main vice, so worth it for me, maybe not worth it for others.

IME a better grinder makes a much bigger impact than a better espresso machine. The jump in quality and complexity when I upgraded my Breville Smart Grinder Pro to a Eureka Mignon Specialitia was really significant. The jump in quality when I upgraded from a Breville Infuser to a Lelit Bianca was there but not where near as big.

The Bianca has lots of other advantages but for pure espresso quality it wasn't a massive jump.

Handle9

11926 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9677

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#3431290 5-Nov-2025 17:13

To answer OPs question it's less about the volume a shot "should be" than the ratio of water to coffee. The reason that most people recommend using a scale is it means you can manage the ratio consistently. You have a lot of variables in espresso and this is one that can be easily normalised.

The ratio you target will differ a bit between light and dark roasts but as above a good place to start is 2:1 espresso to beans. If the shot takes 20-30 seconds and seems bitter try a bit less water, if it seems a bit sour try a bit more water.

Bitter usually means the coffee is over extracted, sour usually means under extracted.

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

SpartanVXL

1498 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 666

#3431301 5-Nov-2025 18:12

My coffee for the day is usually however much my moka pot makes in one go with milk at about 1:4-5 ratio.

sen8or

1897 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1402

#3431351 6-Nov-2025 07:57

tweake:

a small tip, freeze any unopened packets. that helps stop them going rancid. i get a few fresh packets delivered (free shipping) and freeze them. support the specialty roasters rather than the supermarket rubbish. tho some actually supply local supermarket, so you can get really good coffee at supermarkets if you know what your looking for.

i can't see the point of preground coffee beans. whats the odds of your setup matching their grind size. i found grind size and quality makes the biggest difference.

please, for the love of coffee, NO. Do not refrigerate and do not freeze coffee, it will alter the flavour / behavior of the beans. Buy what you are likely to consume within a 7 - 14 day period. Keep them in an airtight container (not ground) and away from sunlight. The truly obsessed go as far as not even leaving beans in the hopper (if they even have a hopper) and measure each lot of beans directly into the grinder, thats a step to far for me (convenience has to apply at some point).

tweake

2642 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1137

#3431369 6-Nov-2025 09:37

sen8or:

please, for the love of coffee, NO. Do not refrigerate and do not freeze coffee, it will alter the flavour / behavior of the beans. Buy what you are likely to consume within a 7 - 14 day period. Keep them in an airtight container (not ground) and away from sunlight. The truly obsessed go as far as not even leaving beans in the hopper (if they even have a hopper) and measure each lot of beans directly into the grinder, thats a step to far for me (convenience has to apply at some point).

beans go rancid when leaving packets out for a weeks/month. that really changes the flavor. james hoffman recommends freezing and personally i don't find any major difference. obviously fresh is better, but thats not always practical.

its a problem i struck early on. i found a local coffee roaster i liked, but the supply was hit and miss. i could order it direct but that cost more. i found a different crowd and its cheaper to get a months worth at a time.

alisam

878 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 83

#3432566 10-Nov-2025 08:29

sen8or:

A double shot of espresso from 18g (+/-) should produce a total of about 50-60ml of espresso and it should take 20-30 seconds for that to occur. If you are splitting a shot between 2 cups, thats 25-30mm per cup. Depending on how strong you like your coffee, I would think that its ok for a total liquid volume of around 150ml (so a standard tulip cup or small cappuccino cup or similar with 20-30mm of espresso and 120-130mm of water/milk). Much more total volume than that and it may be a bit weak.

How do you measure 50-60ml coming out of the espresso machine. I can understand scales measuring grams e.g. 18 gm in and 36 gm out?

Do you extract the coffee into a measuring shot glass?

1 | 2