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Master Geek
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Topic # 67153 29-Aug-2010 12:16
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CHORUS are trailing a SDP and their proprietary non-standard Demarc.

http://www.chorus.co.nz/service-delivery-points

https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blog92b1904cbba959d9125a3f0f82cb38b0.jpg

The TCF are trying to get quality wiring standards in place and want an industry standard Demarc Point.

http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/dc07abcd-21f8-4288-b55b-6f861bdd4d02.html

https://cdn.geekzone.co.nz/imagessubs/blogf84f58d78983fd91ce828e2ea30701be.jpg

Home Service Techs and consumers want a tidy layout, perhaps a roomy box with proper punch downs and space for all the home communication devices such as XDSL Splitters, ONT/NID, RGW, SWITCHES, IPTV/RF splitters and a backup battery Power supply.

What are the alternatives here ....do we want home wiring closets to be nice and tidy or a jumble of wires in the shoe cupboard ?



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  Reply # 374168 29-Aug-2010 12:53
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IMO the SDP is too little too late for a demarc, and too much for most people in that it has multiple sockets etc.

The way that either the UK or most copper telcos in the US do their demarc is the way to go IMO, a 2 part unit that the customer has access to one side, and opening it does the isolation of the customers wiring and exposes a standard test jack.

The telco should not care about the customer side of that, and IMO the change to a demarc that works is the ideal time to scrap the idea of wiring maintanance. The power company wont swap out your lightswitch if you have a faulty one, so why should the telcos look after what is becoming more complex internal wiring.




Richard rich.ms

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  Reply # 374182 29-Aug-2010 13:41
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The simple reality is a standardised cabinet in every home in the country has about as much chance of happening as me making it to the moon.

I'd challenge you to cold call 100 people and convince them to spend $2k rewiring their house. I bet you'll be lucky to get 2% say they're keen. The rest don't care.




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  Reply # 374230 29-Aug-2010 17:27
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sbiddle: The simple reality is a standardised cabinet in every home in the country has about as much chance of happening as me making it to the moon.

I'd challenge you to cold call 100 people and convince them to spend $2k rewiring their house. I bet you'll be lucky to get 2% say they're keen. The rest don't care.






Let alone finding somewhere to put this breakout frame especially in older houses without attached  garages..




Regards,

Old3eyes




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  Reply # 374311 29-Aug-2010 21:51
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sbiddle: The simple reality is a standardised cabinet in every home in the country has about as much chance of happening as me making it to the moon.

I'd challenge you to cold call 100 people and convince them to spend $2k rewiring their house. I bet you'll be lucky to get 2% say they're keen. The rest don't care.





There are two scenarios, those who want to conform to the TCF structured service demarcation point (SDP) and those consumers who for financial or physical space reasons cannot or will not comply thus choose the cheaper  non-structured SDP.

Most new homes will in fact include a structured demarcation point (ie full Home wiring Closet) and despite what you think, a significant portion of existing homes will make this upgrade to a structured SDP as well. 

Consumers who fit into this “non-structured” category, will purchase a single Router/Modem  device that is a simple basic broadband service demarcation point, effectively how ADSL is deployed today. Those consumers in such dwellings who choose this path will witness their Router/Modem device form factor evolve into products very like the British Telecom home hub2 . http://www.broadband.bt.com/hubdemo/  

 
What this means is that instead of wiring from the ETP to a organized tidy demarcation point inside the home, the cable ( Fibre or Copper) will instead arrive at a single combined Router/Modem device located near the customers communication workstation.

Both the structured home wiring and the non-structured methods have a place in the market, however over time consumers will place a greater importance on their communications equipment and will see no problem with a professional structured SDP.

Home buyers will consider these installation methods in their purchasing decision and demand a certain level of quality from vendors.

FYI  A  structered home wiring closet from the electrical wholesaler is less than $300 ( less Router/Modem/Switch/PSU)

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  Reply # 374370 30-Aug-2010 06:32
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ALARMNZ: 
 
What this means is that instead of wiring from the ETP to a organized tidy demarcation point inside the home, the cable ( Fibre or Copper) will instead arrive at a single combined Router/Modem device located near the customers communication workstation.


Which is eactly the reason Chorus invented SDP's which you say serve no purpose at all.







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  Reply # 374377 30-Aug-2010 07:39
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Sbiddle

There is a huge difference between installing the "active" CHORUS splitter box device and fitting a "passive" xDSL splitter at the service demarcation point. Telecom CHORUS should have been out there putting in the correct splitter in place years ago, but now its too little too late.

Today on the crest of a VoIP revolution and SIP services its just not that important any more. Analog phones will continue to decline as people move further and further towards mobile and VoLAN for voice services within the home.

Cable networks will be "Data" with Voice as a option as opposed to the past where it was "Voice" with Data as a option. This turnaround means that any kind of splitter is really just redundant technology and the majority of ISP's would rather take this SIP path than fit voice equipment at the CHORUS exchanges.

For the very reasons I have stated above the CHORUS active splitter box is a already a dinosaur well before the first one is inflicted on the poor consumer.

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  Reply # 374389 30-Aug-2010 08:41
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ALARMNZ: Sbiddle

There is a huge difference between installing the "active" CHORUS splitter box device and fitting a "passive" xDSL splitter at the service demarcation point. Telecom CHORUS should have been out there putting in the correct splitter in place years ago, but now its too little too late.

Today on the crest of a VoIP revolution and SIP services its just not that important any more. Analog phones will continue to decline as people move further and further towards mobile and VoLAN for voice services within the home.

Cable networks will be "Data" with Voice as a option as opposed to the past where it was "Voice" with Data as a option. This turnaround means that any kind of splitter is really just redundant technology and the majority of ISP's would rather take this SIP path than fit voice equipment at the CHORUS exchanges.

For the very reasons I have stated above the CHORUS active splitter box is a already a dinosaur well before the first one is inflicted on the poor consumer.


The Chorus box is not a dinosaur, and quite frankly you're making IMHO your suggestions that is it really show you lack of understanding of the device.

I know VoIP is the future. The issue here is that every home in NZ is not going to go out and buy VoIP phones to replace their $29 cordless phone. They need a RGW or ATA to deliver them a dialtone to their existing jackpoints without a $2000 rewire of their house which you're suggesting should be mandatory.

I won't be engaging in this dicussion any longer, it's obvious you simply don't want to listen.




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  Reply # 374394 30-Aug-2010 09:01
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To bring my responses in the other thread which you have seemingly ignored:

The requirement for a backup power supply probably has more to do with a combination of the Government imposed target of replacing the existing PSTN voice service by 2020 and Telecom's obligations to provide 111 calling that works when the power goes down (as far as I'm aware the battery backup relates to just powering the RGW which acts as the VOIP service point, right?).

And don't forget your comparison of a $29 component off the shelf vs. a full install by a trained tech of an SDP.

Considering that the largest single source of braodband faults is faulty in-house wiring, how can having a standardised termination point available as an option be a bad thing?

Forget the rhetoric about it being too little too late (in your opinion) and all the CHORUS capital spamming, just explain why for your average Kiwi homeowner who doesn't own a crimping tool or even know what one is, having a neatly packaged service to "fix" their internal house wiring to give them the best broadband performance they can achieve is a bad thing?



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  Reply # 374395 30-Aug-2010 09:08
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sbiddle:
ALARMNZ: Sbiddle

There is a huge difference between installing the "active" CHORUS splitter box device and fitting a "passive" xDSL splitter at the service demarcation point. Telecom CHORUS should have been out there putting in the correct splitter in place years ago, but now its too little too late.

Today on the crest of a VoIP revolution and SIP services its just not that important any more. Analog phones will continue to decline as people move further and further towards mobile and VoLAN for voice services within the home.

Cable networks will be "Data" with Voice as a option as opposed to the past where it was "Voice" with Data as a option. This turnaround means that any kind of splitter is really just redundant technology and the majority of ISP's would rather take this SIP path than fit voice equipment at the CHORUS exchanges.

For the very reasons I have stated above the CHORUS active splitter box is a already a dinosaur well before the first one is inflicted on the poor consumer.


The Chorus box is not a dinosaur, and quite frankly you're making IMHO your suggestions that is it really show you lack of understanding of the device.

I know VoIP is the future. The issue here is that every home in NZ is not going to go out and buy VoIP phones to replace their $29 cordless phone. They need a RGW or ATA to deliver them a dialtone to their existing jackpoints without a $2000 rewire of their house which you're suggesting should be mandatory.

I won't be engaging in this dicussion any longer, it's obvious you simply don't want to listen.




Ok Sbiddle   but I do want to listen and understand ...its just that I am disappointed that commentators are not willing to look at this issue objectivley.

For the record 1st there was never any suggestion that consumers pay $2,000 that is something you have said, also I never suggested that home owners totally rewire their house. ( remember Wifi)

But before you head off into the sunset and as you are the only person it seems that has seen the CHORUS SDP device in the wild..please explain to us all what happens if this "ACTIVE" device fails ?  do the phones still work ? is the internet still running  ? 

CHORUS wants to install Power Supplies at the SDP for FTTx how ever in most cases for xDSL this is not needed.






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  Reply # 374407 30-Aug-2010 09:35
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Copper + PSTN Voice - Copper powers the voice service, even if the power goes out

Copper + VOIP Voice service - Copper can't power the RGW which is enabling the VOIP, so requires a battery backup to power the voice service

Fibre + VOIP - Same as above, Fibre provides no power so requires battery backup to power the RGW and allow voice calls to places like 111 or Vector...

xDSL isn't the issue from a battery point of view, it's being able to guarantee that a voice call can be placed from the land-line when the power is out.

Is the SDP an "Active" device? I was under the impression that it's passive up to the point of a power outage, at which point the RGW attached to it can start drawing power from it?

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  Reply # 374491 30-Aug-2010 19:38
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I too would be interested in seeing a SDP to see what its capable, I should at this point admit a vested interest in the Signet ST2206 device which is suited to houses with at least some reasonable level or more of structured cabling.

Cyril



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  Reply # 374507 30-Aug-2010 20:14
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Cymro: To bring my responses in the other thread which you have seemingly ignored:

The requirement for a backup power supply probably has more to do with a combination of the Government imposed target of replacing the existing PSTN voice service by 2020 and Telecom's obligations to provide 111 calling that works when the power goes down (as far as I'm aware the battery backup relates to just powering the RGW which acts as the VOIP service point, right?).

And don't forget your comparison of a $29 component off the shelf vs. a full install by a trained tech of an SDP.

Considering that the largest single source of braodband faults is faulty in-house wiring, how can having a standardised termination point available as an option be a bad thing?

Forget the rhetoric about it being too little too late (in your opinion) and all the CHORUS capital spamming, just explain why for your average Kiwi homeowner who doesn't own a crimping tool or even know what one is, having a neatly packaged service to "fix" their internal house wiring to give them the best broadband performance they can achieve is a bad thing?


Cymro

Firstly there is no government imposed target on Telecom to replace the PSTN by 2020, that date was issued by Telecom CEO Paul Reynolds and mainly relates to current maintenance support contract end date for the NEAX equipment. Under the TSO Telecom has to provide a free 111 service, however the debate about interpretation in terms of situations where the consumer does not have power in still on the table until such time as the Government makes a ruling, which it has not to date.  

A battery backup is only required when the customer has either a FIRE, MEDICAL, SAFETY and/or SECURITY equipment that requires offsite monitoring…OR where the householder chooses to not carry a mobile phone and is therefore dependant on a landline ( VoIP or Analog)  

In fact a ADSL splitter can be purchased for only $29 and all I’m saying is that the nett result of the $200 CHORUS “unstructured” SDP is an splitter and a power supply that costs $$ money to run. 
 
I think the consumer would be better off spending $200 on a "structured" SDP and once the "un-structured" CHORUS device is released and once it is reviewed by others, the "structured" method will make better sense for such rewire jobs. You will see in the coming weeks the CHORUS device is neither “neat” nor does it “fix” internal house wiring, in fact it just messes up the wiring and creates extra points of failure.

CHORUS has yet to explain how its SDP can improve internet speed by 50% and the this SDP white box looks more like a strategy to hold retail customers in play as the company splits in two. 

I really do not know understand this CHORUS SDP device, all I sense is that it’s a waste of energy and resources, but I guess time will tell.

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  Reply # 374512 30-Aug-2010 20:30
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ALARMNZ....

Your average punter wouldnt know what to do with that $29 splitter if he got his hands on one........ As I understand it is $200 to either get a master splitter installed today, or wait a couple of weeks and pay $200 to get an SDP which does sound more future proofed i.e. seems the incremental cost to the man in the street is $0.





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  Reply # 374518 30-Aug-2010 20:36
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I have to agree on that one, an ADSL2+ splitter is one thing, the ability to identify how to best install it in any particular installation is pretty much out of the reasonable realm for a majority of DIY's, and I can speak of this from personal experience.

A modest number of my DSL filter installs are infact from folk who have tried it themselves and as strange as it may seem have stuffed it up or got confused and bu66ered it up, so in the end they still end up paying $150plus to have there DSL sorted, plus lots of hassle and grief trying to do it themselves.

Cyril

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  Reply # 374596 30-Aug-2010 23:26
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Sorry, but I'm going to have to join Sbiddle on this one and step out, you keep going in a circle back to ridiculous statements (the 50% speed thing which has been clarified many many times in your many many threads on this subject) and refuse to acknowledge the difference between paying $200 for a Chorus tech in a van to come and fit a new cable from the ETP directly to a wall mounted SDP Vs. buying a $29 splitter from the shelf in DSE.

I'd suggest you actually get a look at an SDP or at least read the device spec, because you seem to be making a lot of assumptions and shouting them out on here as absolute truths, especially around the battery backup and need for power.
Bear in mind that discussions you may have had relating to FTTH trial area's and solutions may not be the same as the standard residential service Chorus are offering.

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