RBI: Going so very well!

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › RBI: Going so very well!

Beccara

1004 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 178

UberGroup

Topic # 86237 4-Jul-2011 13:19

Just got this sent to me from someone, Shows that the RBI is really going to make a impact!

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

raytaylor

3280 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 661

Trusted

Reply # 489380 4-Jul-2011 21:34

Where is this list of towers?
I would like to see if there are any going up around me.

I also feel it would be a waste of my time going to the meeting.
I would much rather put up my own tower on a hill nearby than pay huge fees to colocate on a cellular tower under the RBI plan.
Telecom / Vodafone have the advantage that the rest of us small rural providers cant get to because they have the non-line-of-sight cellular bands (800-900mhz). Where as I am suck on 2.4ghz and 5.8ghz line of sight for my rural broadband service. So many of the new cellular towers wont be in an optimal site for me or most of the colocating 'competitors' - it can be at a school on flat land or wherever they decide to place them based on the 800-900mhz coverage predictions which are very different to 2.4 and 5.8ghz

I reckon it will be whoever can get there hands on some whitespace hertz will be able to go up against telecom/vodafone based on the RBI colocation scheme.

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here

webwat

1984 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 133

Trusted

Reply # 489402 4-Jul-2011 22:05

I would like to know why the government is subsidising cell sites in locations that are useless for line of sight wireless. Wasn't the idea supposed to be that rural people get better networks by encouraging colocation on towers with fibre backhaul. There's not much point putting colocation requirements into the RBI agreement when tower locations are being decided like this. I suspected the wheels would fall off wireless RBI anyway, because both towers and backhaul links are still owned by the mobile duopoly.

Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going ^_^

raytaylor

3280 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 661

Trusted

Reply # 489559 5-Jul-2011 10:25

webwat: I would like to know why the government is subsidising cell sites in locations that are useless for line of sight wireless. Wasn't the idea supposed to be that rural people get better networks by encouraging colocation on towers with fibre backhaul. There's not much point putting colocation requirements into the RBI agreement when tower locations are being decided like this. I suspected the wheels would fall off wireless RBI anyway, because both towers and backhaul links are still owned by the mobile duopoly.

See thats the thing.
Land owners dont have to lease their land to the unholy union, and the unholy union only has to place towers in locations according to their needs. And because 800-900mhz propogates around hills and through trees much better than microwave, their cellular systems reach further. I really, really, really want access to 750-760mhz if it comes up from whitespace managment changes but i suspect it will be auctioned off to the highest bidder.

They used to backhaul rural towers with microwave radio links, which would mean many had to be up high with line of sight to the next tower in the microwave backhaul line, but with fibre they dont have this requirement.

Its a common practice to limit the range of a cell tower so that you can re use the same frequency, 10km away on another tower and to do this they either aim antennas on a downward angle and limit tx power, or place the cell tower in a location that is not on a high hill, but in an elevated position or wherever hills will block the signal.
They do this all over the place in the hutt valley.

I feel bad about not realising this was happening so fast as I firmly believe that the regional WISP's would have been able to do a much better job at much faster speeds for a much lower build out cost.
I would have probably put up a fight had I known and tried to get media support as Already most of my customers in rural areas can recieve 8-20mbit back to my office through my fixed wireless line-of-sight network.

In my lotto winnings plan, i have allocated 3 million of the powerball spending on network expansion which would result in 85 small solar powered microwave towers covering hawkes bay and the waiarapa. Cocolation and wholesaling of the network could have been built in also. And another 50 dslams to be installed in rural cabinets where the line of sight microwave wont reach.
Though I would imagine that if I had access to 760-780mhz whitespace, the dslams probably wouldnt be needed except for the ultra hilly areas.

Yes if your wondering - I do spend alot of time with radio mapping software - dreaming.

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here

Behodar

6404 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1135

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 489706 5-Jul-2011 16:13

raytaylor: Where is this list of towers?
I would like to see if there are any going up around me.

I can't find the list now (although I've seen it before so it's definitely out there). This map may help in the meantime though.

Edit: This wasn't what I saw last time either, but it could be useful too.

raytaylor

3280 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 661

Trusted

Reply # 489710 5-Jul-2011 16:26

Thanks for those links, they are very interesting.
From that information are putting a new cell site in to cover an area I am planning to cover in about 6 months time by my own investment. This may need to be fast tracked so those users dont get sucked into any long term 3g contracts.

And they are going no where near another area I already cover.

Thanks for those links.

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here

Beccara

1004 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 178

UberGroup

Reply # 489715 5-Jul-2011 16:32

I do have to laugh at those maps, I know for a fact that their current 5mbit zone's are rubbish because we've picked up a number of clients moving away from Vodafone Mobile Broadband due to drop outs and extremely slow speeds despite doing everything right

raytaylor

3280 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 661

Trusted

Reply # 489739 5-Jul-2011 17:27

I have had 3 customers connect whos vodafone mobile service seems to drop out when its raining. Something i dont believe, yet 3 customers have switched over with the exact same reason. All within the current mobile "3g extended" range

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here

webwat

1984 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 133

Trusted

Reply # 489861 5-Jul-2011 23:28

Hope you win the powerball then, maybe the government will chip in a bit too (yes we can dream).

Its just a shame that RBI was changed to a nationwide thing at the last minute so that regional providers would have time to form a coalition arrangement to bid for the programme.

Qualified in business, certified in fibre, stuck in copper, have to keep going ^_^

johnr

19282 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2600
Inactive user

Reply # 489870 5-Jul-2011 23:50

raytaylor: I have had?3 customers connect whos vodafone mobile service seems to drop out when its raining. Something i dont believe, yet 3 customers have switched over with the exact same reason. All within the current mobile "3g extended" range

From your website " it even continues to work in bad weather unlike cellular stick systems "

But then you quote this above in your post " Something i dont believe, "

John

johnr

19282 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2600
Inactive user

Reply # 489876 5-Jul-2011 23:56

I can prove that cellular data packet switch services on any cellular network in NZ will work during bad weather,

John

raytaylor

3280 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 661

Trusted

Reply # 489894 6-Jul-2011 01:30

johnr: I can prove that cellular data packet switch services on any cellular network in NZ will work during bad weather,

John

I too believe it should work fine, but the people I talk to say it doesnt. For both telecom and vodafone.
I assisted one guy and we tried purchasing a yagi antenna (double checked the frequency and local towers for direction) for his vodafone usb stick and mounted it outside with a usb extension cable, but it made the problems worse.

The only reason I can think of is that one area where i get the most complaints about 3g service is a beachfront where the signal goes over the sea to a cell tower 10km away. I suspect it could be the bad effects of multipath over the water in the bad weather. In this area, with vodafone 3g extended, the residents get about 1mbit in good weather.

In another area inland, there is a woman that switched over because her telecom stick wouldnt work in bad weather. It was only 1 bar of signal anyway and she maxed out at 300k

It just seems to be a constant pattern i see.

Oh Johnr - i dont know if you have anything to do with the design or devices avaliable, but i like the idea of you guys having a proper 3g router inside the house as part of the stock standard design rather than a usb stick into a computer. When those sticks dont wanna work, there is very little support for them and often the only way to sort them out is a system restore or reinstall of windows. Having somethign with wifi or lan ports is a much better way so well done on that.

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here

gwh

69 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 27

Reply # 491609 10-Jul-2011 11:12

Hi raytaylor
after my business partner and I went to the original RBI meeting where WISPs etc were briefed we actually came away somewhat relieved. The new towers in our area aren't going anywhere we already provide coverage and Vodafone's existing towers aren't all that well placed to compete with us either.
The coverage map for our area looks very optimistic, I can see why they are only selling it as 5Mb/s peak, I'd really be surprised if there's enough signal to their customers out of LOS of one of their towers to achieve any more that that.
We work on the assumption you can't catch every fish in the sea. Yes. there are some gaps in coverage from our APs but the APs are placed so that if you can see them, you will get signal and therefore service. We've never promised customers otherwise. We're not trying to connect people 40km from a cellsite like VF have claimed. We'd either put a site closer to those people, if there was enough of them, at a fraction of the price, or not provide service to them at all.
The costs quoted at the meeting are far too expensive for us to think about buying space on one of their towers. Also, having been involved with VF in my previous workplace at a technical level I would think that they will require riggers with climbing tickets to climb their towers. How many WISPs in NZ can claim to have or use such people at the moment? More expense, and at the rates we charge our users, we simply can't have expense like that in our business model.
We always say to people when they ask why we can sell them broadband so cheaply that once the big telcos are out of the picture, a lot of costs disappear. I don't see anything in the RBI that changes that. The RBI is good news for rural NZ but the companies that should be concerned are the satellite ISPs, not the wireless ISPs. And I can say that as a WISP that also resells satellite connections.

Glenn Hutton
Rivernet Ltd
Balclutha

raytaylor

3280 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 661

Trusted

Reply # 491641 10-Jul-2011 13:18

thats very good to hear.
I have always thought the riggers etc would be required and costs would be waay too much to colocate.

Personally i reckon Kordia will be the only one to colocate in a large scale because they can expand their alvarion extend system

Really wish i went to the meetings

Ray Taylor
Taylor Broadband (rural hawkes bay)
www.ruralkiwi.com

There is no place like localhost
For my general guide to extending your wireless network Click Here

gwh

69 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 27

Reply # 491654 10-Jul-2011 14:36

The next round of meetings is in about 6 months. We'll go as it impacts our satellite business and leasing dark fibre interests us but the co-location idea is not on our radar. As you say, Kordia might be interested but our experiences with their Airspan service leads us to believe they might have to sharpen their pencils to be anyone's serious competitor.

We've had dealings with them over a wholesale connection too, despite actually approaching us unsolicited, they ended up being more expensive than Telecom and that was providing service on a almost completely unused SDH DMR, located about 20m from our NOC.