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MurrayM

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#316257 30-Sep-2024 10:46
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Some background: I rent a one story house, built on a concrete slab, walls appear to be timber and gib. Fibre connection is through One NZ. The ONT and router are in a room in one corner of the house, TV with Chromecast with Google TV 4k dongle is in the diagonally opposite corner of the house. WiFi connection when in the lounge is weak (eg 1 out of 3 bars) on all devices (phones, Chromecast, laptops) but strong enough for web browsing and basic stuff. Router (Vodafone supplied Ultra Hub) has both 2.4GHz and 5GHz and is positioned on a shelf at head height. Because we're renting and can't go under the house, all devices are running on WiFi except for my PC which is in the same room as the router.

 

Problem: Even though the WiFi signal in the lounge is weak, most of the time streaming to the TV is fine using Netflix, Youtube, ThreeNow, TVNZ+, Disney+, Acorn TV and Tubi. However, most evenings around 7:30pm, the streaming changes from running fine to buffering (eg 10 seconds of playing, 5 seconds of buffering, rinse and repeat). Occasionally this can happen at other times of the day (eg Sunday mid-morning). It'll be playing just fine and then *bang* we get constant buffering. When the buffering starts I've switched to other streaming services and they all do the buffering, so I don't think the problem is the service. I've also tried pausing the video to allow the buffer to fill a bit before continuing watching, and this does seem to work for some services but not really for others (I'm not sure what controls the size of the buffer, is it the Chromecast or the app running on the Chromecast? Some of the services seem to have small buffers and stop downloading when their small buffer is full, while others have larger buffers).

 

Question: Why would this happen? I can understand if the weak WiFi signal causes buffering all the time, but the fact that there are times of the day when it works without buffering kinda suggests to me that the WiFi, weak as it is, is still strong enough to stream. Could my connection speed possibly be affected by others in my neighbourhood? I've tried waiting for the buffering to start and then using my PC (wired to the router) to steam and it streams just fine with no buffering, suggesting that the problem isn't with the streaming services or with One.

 

I've tried using a WiFi analyzer app on my phone to pick a channel that has the least amount of competition from my neighbours (my immediate neighbours WiFi signal is actually stronger in my lounge than my own WiFi). That may have made a slight bit of improvement, but not enough to fix the problem.

 

I'm now considering buying a WiFi mesh extender (looking at a NETGEAR AX1800 4-Stream WiFi 6 Mesh Extender EAX15 but am open to other suggestions). I know that One offer a free mesh kit for those having WiFi issues but that's only available if you're on a post-pay mobile plan and I'm on a pre-pay plan that suits me just fine so I'm not looking to switch. I've got a couple of power points that are about halfway between the router and the TV that I can use, one in a hallway and another in the loft.

 

Anything else I could try before buying the WiFi extender?


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Dynamic
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  #3288039 30-Sep-2024 10:56
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A new Wi-Fi mesh system sounds like it would be a handy addition to the house to improve connectivity, but it may not resolve the buffering issue.

 

The next few times this happens, could you try streaming from a device in the same room as the router?  Perhaps sit in there and watch an episode of something on a tablet or computer?  I think this would help confirm whether it's a Wi-Fi issue inside your home or a broadband issue outside your home.





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MurrayM

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  #3288045 30-Sep-2024 11:07
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Dynamic:

 

A new Wi-Fi mesh system sounds like it would be a handy addition to the house to improve connectivity, but it may not resolve the buffering issue.

 

 

Yeah I was thinking the same thing.

 

 

The next few times this happens, could you try streaming from a device in the same room as the router?  Perhaps sit in there and watch an episode of something on a tablet or computer?  I think this would help confirm whether it's a Wi-Fi issue inside your home or a broadband issue outside your home.

 

 

I could load up a couple of the streaming apps on an old Android tablet that I have and try using that in the same room as the router. Thanks for the idea!

 

What I can't understand is why it only happens some of the time. If it was solely due to the weak WiFi I'd expect it to happen all of the time or none of the time, unless something external is interfering with the signal. And that 7:30pm time when it often starts suggests something external is happening around that time. I thought it was probably peak streaming time for TV so might be congestion related. Not sure if neighbourhood congestion is a problem for the Chorus fibre network (we're located in Browns Bay, Auckland).


Spyware
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  #3288059 30-Sep-2024 11:32
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MurrayM:

 

Not sure if neighbourhood congestion is a problem for the Chorus fibre network (we're located in Browns Bay, Auckland).

 

 

Wash your mouth out.





Spark Max Fibre using Mikrotik CCR1009-8G-1S-1S+, CRS125-24G-1S, Unifi UAP, U6-Pro, UAP-AC-M-Pro, Apple TV 4K (2022), Apple TV 4K (2017), iPad Air 1st gen, iPad Air 4th gen, iPhone 13, SkyNZ3151 (the white box). If it doesn't move then it's data cabled.




Dynamic
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  #3288071 30-Sep-2024 11:38
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MurrayM:

 

I thought it was probably peak streaming time for TV so might be congestion related. Not sure if neighbourhood congestion is a problem for the Chorus fibre network (we're located in Browns Bay, Auckland).

 

 

I don't have strong knowledge of Chorus network or the networks of ISPs, but bandwidth cost money and must produce income to cover the expense.  There must be profit so the ISP is viable as a business.  Spare bandwidth costs money but produces no income. If an ISP has enough bandwidth to cover demand 99% of the time:

 

  • is that 99% good enough?  Are their clients happy enough that they are getting good value for money and are prepared to put up with slowdowns during that 1% of time?
  • What if that 1% is typically when they want to sit down and stream their favourite show to relax at the end of a long day?
  • If an ISP buys enough bandwidth to cover demand 99.8% of the time, will consumers pay a premium for that 0.8%
  • If an ISP buys enough bandwidth to cover demand 100% of the time, will consumers pay an even bigger premium for that?
  • If an ISP maintains this spare bandwidth, how can they get this message through to enough consumers to pay the premium price to make it profitable for the ISP?
  • Should the ISP instead do traffic shaping to (as an example) slow down torrent downloads during peak times to allow enough bandwidth for streaming not to be impacted at peak times?  Would there be customer backlash for interfering with their customers internet bandwidth with this traffic shaping?  Does traffic shaping come at its own cost for equipment?

Questions I've pondered in the past.  I imagine it's not easy being an ISP.





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richms
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  #3288075 30-Sep-2024 11:47
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If it is falling back to 2.4GHz wifi then this can happen. Do you know what band you are running on when having the problems?

 

Wifi 2.4 congestion is a major problem in most urban areas. Particularly if you are trying to run a 40MHz channel to get the bigger numbers on your devices.

 

The more people in their houses streaming over 2.4, the higher the noise floor is. If your neighbour has a wireless subwoofer on their soundbar or wireless rear speakers, they dont give a crap about other users of the band and just send their signal.





Richard rich.ms

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  #3288098 30-Sep-2024 12:21
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MurrayM:

 

 I've got a couple of power points that are about halfway between the router and the TV that I can use, one in a hallway and another in the loft.

 

Anything else I could try before buying the WiFi extender?

 

 

Just don't - wifi extenders often make marginal situations not much better,.

 

Given your inability to run cabling, your two option are probably Mesh or Powerline adaptors, 


 
 
 

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MurrayM

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  #3288112 30-Sep-2024 12:43
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richms:

 

If it is falling back to 2.4GHz wifi then this can happen. Do you know what band you are running on when having the problems?

 

 

The Chromecast knows about both bands, I'm not sure if it switches to whichever it thinks is best or just always uses the last one I selected. I've tried switching bands when the problem occurs but it doesn't seem to make any difference. I usually have it set to 2.4 with my thinking being that a slow but steady stream is better than a faster but glitchier stream.

 

In a straight line from the router to the Chromecast there's 2 walls and a corner that might give the signal a glancing blow. Distance is about 14 metres in a straight line according to Google Maps.

 

 

Wifi 2.4 congestion is a major problem in most urban areas. Particularly if you are trying to run a 40MHz channel to get the bigger numbers on your devices.

 

The more people in their houses streaming over 2.4, the higher the noise floor is. If your neighbour has a wireless subwoofer on their soundbar or wireless rear speakers, they dont give a crap about other users of the band and just send their signal.

 

 

Yeah I'm wondering if the neighbours might be causing some interference. Their house is a reverse mirror of ours (it's a set of 4 houses down a shared driveway) and so their lounge is right next to ours with about a 6 or 7 meter gap between houses. Maybe the 7:30pm time coincides with when they sit down to use their TV.

 

Oh, and I should have mentioned in my original post that we're a 2 person household and the only other WiFi devices actively being used at the same time as the streaming is my wife's phone (I assume she's either deathscrolling or playing her dress-up dolls game) and sometimes I use my Chromebook at the same time to look stuff up.


MurrayM

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  #3288114 30-Sep-2024 12:50
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wellygary:

 

MurrayM:

 

 I've got a couple of power points that are about halfway between the router and the TV that I can use, one in a hallway and another in the loft.

 

Anything else I could try before buying the WiFi extender?

 

 

Just don't - wifi extenders often make marginal situations not much better,.

 

Given your inability to run cabling, your two option are probably Mesh or Powerline adaptors, 

 

 

Maybe I'm not using the right terminology and "extender" is the wrong word. I know there's a difference between "extenders" and mesh units, with extenders being the older tech that's not so good. The unit I'm looking at calls itself a "4-Stream WiFi 6 Mesh Extender" (see here). I assume that since it mentions "mesh" that it really is a proper mesh unit. It also claims to be WiFi 6 but all my gear is WiFi 5, but the description says it's backwards compatible and will work with all previous WiFi generations.


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  #3288115 30-Sep-2024 12:53
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Others are currently having issues with One NZ Fibre slowdowns at peak times and it is being investigated. Perhaps check this thread before purchasing some new networking hardware:

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz//forums.asp?forumid=40&topicid=315747


MurrayM

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  #3288116 30-Sep-2024 13:01
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Asteros:

 

Others are currently having issues with One NZ Fibre slowdowns at peak times and it is being investigated. Perhaps check this thread before purchasing some new networking hardware:

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz//forums.asp?forumid=40&topicid=315747

 

 

Oh, I thought One had fixed that. Has it come back again? Other than the video buffering I haven't noticed any other problems at the same time.


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  #3288172 30-Sep-2024 13:25
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Looks like it has not been sorted. According to the thread they are currently investigating it.


 
 
 

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.
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  #3288191 30-Sep-2024 14:14
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MurrayM:

 

Maybe I'm not using the right terminology and "extender" is the wrong word. I know there's a difference between "extenders" and mesh units, with extenders being the older tech that's not so good. The unit I'm looking at calls itself a "4-Stream WiFi 6 Mesh Extender" (see here). I assume that since it mentions "mesh" that it really is a proper mesh unit. It also claims to be WiFi 6 but all my gear is WiFi 5, but the description says it's backwards compatible and will work with all previous WiFi generations.

 

 

An actual mesh device will only connect to the same type of device and make a mesh with control over all of them from a single place as a single managed network.

 

companies will put all the words on products, and I have seen traditional single radio crap extenders called meshes before as that is one mode they have of operating, but they can also be a conventional crap repeating extender.

 

That one says it works with an existing router so I assume it is not a true mesh and does all the client mode trickery problem causing stuff to work with any router.





Richard rich.ms

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  #3288333 30-Sep-2024 17:29
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If your pc on ethernet is fine, then you’re likely getting wifi congestion at those peak times.

A mesh setup in the middle might help, or just be the same at those times anyway.

Ideally running cable would be best bet, but if that’s completely out then those ethernet over power plugs are your next choice, plug into the side of house with low signal and stick a wifi AP on it.

Or if you’re getting a good AP that can blast the signal further then just use that instead of your (im assuming) isp provided router (ultrahub?).

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  #3288394 30-Sep-2024 23:00
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Could be a microwave cooker in use?
Faulty LED Bulb or switching PSU.
A bit of RF leakage or noise could overwhelm an already
marginal wifi signal


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  #3288678 1-Oct-2024 15:31
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MurrayM:

 

I thought it was probably peak streaming time for TV so might be congestion related. Not sure if neighborhood congestion is a problem for the Chorus fibre network (we're located in Browns Bay, Auckland).

 

 

 

 

The Chorus network? No. Chorus is quite vocal about being proudly congestion free on our fibre network. The bandwidth capabilities on fibre are pretty astronomical, we are not in much danger of reaching capacity there (as recent upgrade projects like Hyperfibre have shown). What tends to cause a bottle neck are handover links and other such internal routing equipment. To counter that, Chorus maintains a steady eye on usage and when something is consistently getting close to capacity (80% from memory) we upgrade to ensure no congestion occurs. However the Chorus network is only a portion of the journey from point of origin to your home. What RSP's do (or not do) to shape your data usage when on their section of the network is out of our hands.

 

 

 

Dynamic:

 

I don't have strong knowledge of Chorus network or the networks of ISPs, but bandwidth cost money and must produce income to cover the expense.  There must be profit so the ISP is viable as a business.  Spare bandwidth costs money but produces no income. If an ISP has enough bandwidth to cover demand 99% of the time:

 

  • is that 99% good enough?  Are their clients happy enough that they are getting good value for money and are prepared to put up with slowdowns during that 1% of time?
  • What if that 1% is typically when they want to sit down and stream their favorite show to relax at the end of a long day?
  • If an ISP buys enough bandwidth to cover demand 99.8% of the time, will consumers pay a premium for that 0.8%
  • If an ISP buys enough bandwidth to cover demand 100% of the time, will consumers pay an even bigger premium for that?
  • If an ISP maintains this spare bandwidth, how can they get this message through to enough consumers to pay the premium price to make it profitable for the ISP?
  • Should the ISP instead do traffic shaping to (as an example) slow down torrent downloads during peak times to allow enough bandwidth for streaming not to be impacted at peak times?  Would there be customer backlash for interfering with their customers internet bandwidth with this traffic shaping?  Does traffic shaping come at its own cost for equipment?

Questions I've pondered in the past.  I imagine it's not easy being an ISP.

 

 

 

 

Bandwidth on a handover link costs money yes. One of the reasons upgrades like Hyperfibre had to be brought out in phases and is only available on certain RSP's. In order to offer the service they need to ensure they have enough bandwidth capability in the local exchange to handle the possible upsurge in usage. I don't know what the commercials are on bandwidth for backhaul links, but I'm sure there must be somthing. That being said some RSP's (like One NZ) do in fact have their own network infrastructure that they utilise for network backhaul and the like. So while yes i could see a use case for RSP's doing some shaping generally speaking i wouldn't say it was rampant. I am not however a network engineer for every RSP so i can only speak anecdotally here.

^Richard


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