2Degrees intermittent connection failure after downgrade

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Bosbefork

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#312485 21-Apr-2024 12:56

Realising that 50/10 unlimited is sufficient for our needs, I downgraded our 2D package from 312/108 earlier this week. However, since the transfer, we have been plagued by intermittent connection failures between the supplied Orbi router and the fibre connection. The Oribi reports a connection problem and I reboot the Orbi and then all is well until it loses its connection again.

2D support ran me through a factory reset of the Orbi router but the problem persists.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that 2D intentionally degrades their own cheaper network and makes it unusable so that you don't downgrade ;)

The issue appears to be exactly as described here:

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=81&topicid=306304

I've sent 2D another support request. Any suggestions on how to proceed from here. I'm getting itchy fingers to can 2D and move to a different ISP - but it really may be a technical fault that needs correcting.

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#3221043 21-Apr-2024 15:23

Replace the patch lead between ONT and Orbi. Buy a cheap Huawei off trademe and test with that.

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Bosbefork

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#3221105 21-Apr-2024 18:09

Thanks for the suggestions.

The support team from 2D have got back to me saying that they appear to have made some "discoveries" on their side that have been sent "to the team that best deal with the issues" that were found.

Bosbefork

19 posts

Geek

#3222115 24-Apr-2024 10:29

2D did not fix the problem and since their 50mbps service did not work, I made the decision to revert back to the 300 plan.

And just like that the network is working 100% so far with no errors or disconnects. Therefore it's extremely unlikely for there to be a fault on the router, cables or the physical fibre infrastructure.

If there are no further issues, then the most logical explanation for an unusable 50mbps connection would be that 2D handbrakes and intentionally disconnects downgraded services in order to prevent revenue loss.

evnafets

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#3222128 24-Apr-2024 11:26

Current prices
- 50mbps $50 / month
- 312mbps plans: $70 / month (on a 12 month plan)

saving: $20 / month

Not insignificant...

https://www.2degrees.nz/broadband/plans?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpI_pirzZhQMVE6JmAh02dA2eEAAYASAAEgICefD_BwE&discount=yes&powerDiscount=no

Bosbefork

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Geek

#3222289 24-Apr-2024 13:18

I'd suggest that you read the small print.

There is a service that costs $50 and a service almost twice that. It may be insignificant to you, but as a startup business, keeping overheads low is imperative for growth. Cutting a service cost by almost 50% is significant because if you could do the same with other costs, it will have a huge impact on the profitability of a small business.

But most people don't know anything about that because they just spend everything they earn paycheck to paycheck and then whine and complain when they don't have anything left over.

richms

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#3222309 24-Apr-2024 13:56

I really have to question why they offer these super low speed plans when the upstream will just saturate on any normal use to the point where the PPPoE connection will start to have issues.

You really need a router that will rate limit and prioritize the upstream if you are to choose such a low amount, otherwise a single device uploading will start to cause loss at the ethernet level on the uplink from the throttling. I suspect that there is no fault with anything and its just how it is on these plans when the uploading devices and routers are dumping all they can into the connection which is more than the limit.

Richard rich.ms

Bosbefork

19 posts

Geek

#3222315 24-Apr-2024 14:05

I've used plenty of slower connections over the years and they all worked just fine. Also, there is a big difference between congestion at slow speeds and complete disconnects.

RunningMan

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#3222373 24-Apr-2024 15:24

evnafets: [snip]

Not insignificant...

Bosbefork:[snip]

I'd suggest that you read the small print.

There is a service that costs $50 and a service almost twice that. It may be insignificant to you,

@evnafets didn't say it was insignificant. The opposite in fact.

RunningMan

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#3222377 24-Apr-2024 15:26

richms:

I really have to question why they offer these super low speed plans when the upstream will just saturate on any normal use to the point where the PPPoE connection will start to have issues.

They're perfectly fine for a lot of users with asymetric use though. Unless you are uploading a lot, then it copes with several decent video streams at the same time, and is plenty fast enough for other general usage.

michaelmurfy

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#3222385 24-Apr-2024 15:37

Bosbefork: I've used plenty of slower connections over the years and they all worked just fine. Also, there is a big difference between congestion at slow speeds and complete disconnects.

10Mbit isn't much for upstream bandwidth and things over the years have become more data hungry. You fully sure it isn't upstream congestion potentially causing issues? It almost smells like that given the problems have gone once you upgraded your plan once again.

It is just a profile change so nothing else happens when you change your plan.

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richms

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#3222485 24-Apr-2024 17:39

michaelmurfy:

Bosbefork: I've used plenty of slower connections over the years and they all worked just fine. Also, there is a big difference between congestion at slow speeds and complete disconnects.

10Mbit isn't much for upstream bandwidth and things over the years have become more data hungry. You fully sure it isn't upstream congestion potentially causing issues? It almost smells like that given the problems have gone once you upgraded your plan once again.

It is just a profile change so nothing else happens when you change your plan.

DSL routers know the upstream limits and will not lose PPPoE frames, fiber it will encapsulate and pass anything and everything out the port and then its discarded upstream at the LFC's limiting. This is where routers with QOS are better as they will let you specify the upload limit and stick to it.

Too much loss and things declare connections down. One end thinks its up and one thinks its down and thats when reconnects dont happen. This is another area that DHCP is better as the discarding doesnt affect it like it does PPP.

Richard rich.ms

Bosbefork

19 posts

Geek

#3222493 24-Apr-2024 18:25

Just to recap:

The two most affordable options at 2D for unlimited fibre are now:

1. 50/10 for $50 pm
2. 312/108 for $97.00 (based on an actual bill - not some scheme or plan that expires)

I downgraded to the 50/10 knowing that based on previous networking experience from dial-up to ADSL, wireless wifi to fibre that 50/10 should be more than sufficient for my needs.

Immediately on downgrading to 50/10, the connection stopped working. The router would disconnect from the fibre entirely. Rebooting the router would connect it again. The router would confirm that it was connected at about 50mbps and 10mbps. A browser-based speed test would report the same.

But you could not browse web pages or perform the most simple of tasks. An important Google conference call with no other devices using bandwidth was not possible. I used my phone's wifi to connect to the same conference call - which then worked perfectly.

I'm not talking about slow usage or too many devices on my network. I'm talking about completely unusable connectivity that I'd guess at very slow ADSL speeds. I'd describe it as a sub 1mbps or 2mbps service when it was running. But both the router and browser speed test would report close to full 50mbps down and 10 mbps up.

The closest thing I could describe it as is when the DNS is not working properly when trying to browse sites.

2D support reported that they had found some issue, but they did not fix it. Actually, I'm still waiting for them to get back to me on the fault.

The error was fixed completely by me requesting that the line be upgraded back to 312/108. Now suddenly everything is working just perfectly.

I concluded:

The error is not in any way on my side in terms of network setup, routers or config.
The error is not a fibre error, nor any error connecting from the router to the fibre.
2D probably doesn't want people downgrading their service.

If someone else gets the same issues when downgrading, you can be pretty sure it's not on your side and that 2D are the only ones who know what the "problem" is ;)

michaelmurfy

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#3222495 24-Apr-2024 18:35

@Bosbefork No, it is none of those reasons. @richms explained what the problem is likely - upstream saturation and you're yet to provide any evidence for anyone to believe otherwise.

Saying your ISP is intentionally doing this to prevent people from downgrading is outright incorrect.

10Mbit is not much, the internet has moved on from the Dialup and ADSL and even with ADSL it is super common to experience upstream saturation. All it takes is a mobile device backing up to saturate your upstream then you'll experience problems.

RunningMan

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#3222499 24-Apr-2024 18:50

Bosbefork:[snip]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that 2D intentionally degrades their own cheaper network and makes it unusable so that you don't downgrade ;)

Bosbefork: [snip]the most logical explanation for an unusable 50mbps connection would be that 2D handbrakes and intentionally disconnects downgraded services in order to prevent revenue loss.

I'm not in any way trying to diminish the problem you've had, I'm sure it's very frustrating. However, repeating the assertion that 2D are deliberately crippling the service is nonsense. Putting aside both the ethical and legal issues with that, they wouldn't want the bad publicity either. This may well be a 2D technical issue, but it won't be a deliberate business decision.

Upstream congestion as noted above is an obvious candidate, once 2D have completed their troubleshooting. There are all sorts of cloud services that run in the background consuming bandwidth. If your router can give you instantaenous throughput data it's easy to check this though.

richms

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#3222510 24-Apr-2024 19:33

Do you have a router that can show you your utilization like a fritzbox does, and can have its ISP specs set on it to manage it accordingly?

Because for the people I know on the poverty plan, understanding and limiting the upstream was critical for anything to work properly on it. Low speeds and the huge window sizes that modern OSs are trying to use do not play well together.

Richard rich.ms

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