2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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Mad Scientist
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#2828609 8-Dec-2021 12:58

Sup:

Measuring outcomes of different approaches is at the heart of science.You can compartmentalize if you choose.

But in Science, progress is measured by comparison. And this is a scientific topic.

Didn't science help create its own distrust toward science.

At start of pandemic US Surgeon General on every media telling everybody don't wear masks there is no evidence for masks.

Then he appears on every media begging people to wear masks.

And now here we are today living in one big mess of a confused society.

Oblivian

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#2828613 8-Dec-2021 13:05

We are taught in school, hypothesis, testing, analysis, result

Reporting on any of those steps without waiting till the end one are always going to be perceived different.

tdgeek

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#2828624 8-Dec-2021 13:23

Oblivian: We are taught in school, hypothesis, testing, analysis, result

Reporting on any of those steps without waiting till the end one are always going to be perceived different.

Agree

With the pandemic we can choose conservatively to add weight to measures that we know work, rather than gamble on a convenient one. And massage that as time goes on and more data is garnered. But people want results now, and no inconvenience. Oh and certainty, and you're not allowed to change mind. I can't see how we can do that when there are many unknown that we need to get known first

tdgeek

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#2828626 8-Dec-2021 13:26

Batman:

Didn't science help create its own distrust toward science.

At start of pandemic US Surgeon General on every media telling everybody don't wear masks there is no evidence for masks.

Then he appears on every media begging people to wear masks.

And now here we are today living in one big mess of a confused society.

Well you're not helping by continually raising doom and gloom and broadcasting fake news online as in that post.

"living in one big mess of a confused society" I don't see that, I see society battling a pandemic

Sup

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Ultimate Geek

#2828628 8-Dec-2021 13:30

Batman:
Sup:

Measuring outcomes of different approaches is at the heart of science.You can compartmentalize if you choose.

But in Science, progress is measured by comparison. And this is a scientific topic.

Didn't science help create its own distrust toward science.

At start of pandemic US Surgeon General on every media telling everybody don't wear masks there is no evidence for masks.

Then he appears on every media begging people to wear masks.

And now here we are today living in one big mess of a confused society.

A lot of people did not pay attention during their science education at school. Science evolves. Understanding changes. That is why the principles of medicine are called best practice. Because they are the best known practice at any snap shot in time.

Miss trust comes in some quarters from willful ignorance.

I am not saying here that Science figures are always following their own principles. One of my favorite examples of this, is the Bubonic plague epidemic in the US.

The Naval Surgeon General at the time declared that non Chinese people cannot catch the bubonic plague.....Which makes you wonder how the black death caused the dark ages in Europe.

The mask guidance is nuanced.

in brief. No one had done trials of mask wearing in the West in the general population.

It was a known fact, that poor mask technique causes transmission risk through hands touching the face.

There was a global shortage of face masks in the west.

Masks vary by degree in terms of protection, and are further restricted by the proximity of the wearer to a shedder, and the amount of time the exposure event is measured over.

People who reuse masks without either disposing of when indicated, or washing in between wearing them, risk putting an infected mask back on their faces.

People exhale moist air. Masks get damp, damp cloth surfaces are good reservoirs for pathogens.

So.....at the time....yeah the Surgeon General was probably right...people should not wear masks until it is better understood and observed in terms of whether people can be taught to use them correctly, and whether there are even enough to go around.

Just keep swimming...

Sup

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Ultimate Geek

#2828688 8-Dec-2021 13:47

Another sub 100 day in the bag. It seems clear that if we keep our vaccine uptake ticking over, especially in places that are lagging behind, that we will get through all of this fairly unscathed, subject to the next variant bringing a new game to town,

Just keep swimming...

Scott3

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#2828697 8-Dec-2021 13:58

Comments on North land checkpoints from the Police Association President via newshub:

7:40am - Police Association president Chris Cahill says plans for police and iwi to man checkpoints at the Northland/Te Tai Tokerau border is not a good use of resources, taking officers away from important work in their own districts.

From next week, police and iwi will work together to establish checkpoints at Northland's border to ensure only fully vaccinated travellers are able to enter the region, which is battling to boost its flagging vaccination rates.

Over a month, 296 police officers from across the country will be deployed to man the checkpoints, in conjunction with local iwi. Seventy-four will initially be deployed next week.

Speaking to The AM Show on Wednesday morning, Cahill said his staff are "not very pleased".

"In reality is, they don't think it's a good use of resources," he said. "These are officers that should be back in their districts doing the busy work that happens at this time of year, Christmas and New Year policing, family harm... not stopping vehicles of people that are already vaccinated. It's just not going to achieve what the aim is."

He says with a number of police missing from the line of duty, crime may increase in understaffed areas.

"Something has to give. I'm certainly hoping that after a few days, the reality that you're not stopping unvaccinated people leaving Auckland will be proven, and the [roadblocks] will be shut down. I understand the concerns of the iwi around the risk for their whānau in Northland, but when 92 percent of people in Auckland are vaccinated, that's who you're going to be stopping.

"I think their resources would be much better [used] getting that vaccination rate up."

Cahill says the high rates of vaccination in Auckland should give concerned Northlanders some peace of mind, noting that the vast majority of people at the checkpoints will be fully vaccinated.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/12/coronavirus-latest-on-covid-19-community-outbreak-wednesday-december-8.html

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Batman

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#2828698 8-Dec-2021 14:00

Sup:
A lot of people did not pay attention during their science education at school. Science evolves. Understanding changes. That is why the principles of medicine are called best practice. Because they are the best known practice at any snap shot in time.

Miss trust comes in some quarters from willful ignorance.

I am not saying here that Science figures are always following their own principles. One of my favorite examples of this, is the Bubonic plague epidemic in the US.

The Naval Surgeon General at the time declared that non Chinese people cannot catch the bubonic plague.....Which makes you wonder how the black death caused the dark ages in Europe.

The mask guidance is nuanced.

in brief. No one had done trials of mask wearing in the West in the general population.

It was a known fact, that poor mask technique causes transmission risk through hands touching the face.

There was a global shortage of face masks in the west.

Masks vary by degree in terms of protection, and are further restricted by the proximity of the wearer to a shedder, and the amount of time the exposure event is measured over.

People who reuse masks without either disposing of when indicated, or washing in between wearing them, risk putting an infected mask back on their faces.

People exhale moist air. Masks get damp, damp cloth surfaces are good reservoirs for pathogens.

So.....at the time....yeah the Surgeon General was probably right...people should not wear masks until it is better understood and observed in terms of whether people can be taught to use them correctly, and whether there are even enough to go around.

What you are saying is science don't know. So people using science can be a convenient way of pushing their agendas. And we now have a messy confused distrusting society.

Sup

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Ultimate Geek

#2828708 8-Dec-2021 14:26

Batman:

What you are saying is science don't know. So people using science can be a convenient way of pushing their agendas. And we now have a messy confused distrusting society.

Speaking of agendas there is a long term historic and present day threat to science by extremists who fall on both sideds of the political spectrum, that attack science and people who embrace science.

I agree mixed messaging has been counter productive in this pandemic.

How we react to these troubling times, and who we choose to listen to, is entirely on our own heads.

Just keep swimming...

ezbee

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#2828769 8-Dec-2021 14:46

MOH advice is only one part, and I'm sure there is other advice they would want to take into consideration.
Mostly its ok, but sometimes shown issues in its assurances of 'we can handle this',
PPE supplies, PPE distribution, Testing of border workers, Rapid testing and such.

I watched 'yes minister' and know how it really works. :-)

DHBs that have to work with sewage in the walls and staffing issues, may not be so glass half full.
My ICU nurse has only done a 4 hour course online.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/457276/covid-19-nurses-online-icu-training-varies-widely-between-dhbs

I suppose there is separate science advice as well as police and NZTA on border etc.
Maybe export industries given warning by major customer on covid in food processing.
I'm expect there is a lot more on case modelling and data presented.

Not just a 'you're good to go'

Eva888

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#2828951 8-Dec-2021 20:51

This came up in my news feed today and is very worrying.

https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/120-children-hospitalized-province-suspends-pfizer-vaccine-batch-4397748.html

Batman

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#2828955 8-Dec-2021 21:10

Eva888: This came up in my news feed today and is very worrying.

https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/120-children-hospitalized-province-suspends-pfizer-vaccine-batch-4397748.html

both my kids have had 2 shots.

they were both given adult doses.

the bigger one, if you didn't know he had a vaccine you'd think nothing happened to him.

the small one, he was sick as a dog esp the second dose.

these kids are tiny as, i think they're vietnamese. they got the caucasian adult dose. sure to floor them. but they are now immune.

quickymart

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#2829012 8-Dec-2021 22:00

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/12/multiple-investigations-underway-after-doctor-filmed-issuing-medical-certificate-exemptions-to-anti-vaxxers.html

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Idiotic so-called "doctors" like this screw things up for people who have a genuine reason to get a vaccine exemption. Even worse, she's charging for it. "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Strike her off so she can never practice again. Ditto any other doctors doing this. I did see one comment on Facebook from someone saying this sort of nonsense won't help people who are vaccine anxious, this will just make them worse. I'm inclined to agree.

Sorry for my strong language but I am so sick of "medical professionals" doing this sort of crap, or morons on social media saying the vaccine will kill you, it's all a hoax, it's just a flu, blah blah blah...it feels like it's just never going to end :( Reporting it to Facebook seems like a waste of time - 99% of the time they don't do jack about it, or otherwise they reply with a copy and paste response of "this didn't breach our terms" so all this misinformation just stays there for anyone to read. I can understand now why they were (quite rightly) dragged over the coals by the US Government for allowing coronavirus misinformation to propagate on their platform not so long ago!

Sup

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Ultimate Geek

#2829021 8-Dec-2021 22:12

quickymart:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2021/12/multiple-investigations-underway-after-doctor-filmed-issuing-medical-certificate-exemptions-to-anti-vaxxers.html

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Idiotic so-called "doctors" like this screw things up for people who have a genuine reason to get a vaccine exemption. Even worse, she's charging for it. "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Strike her off so she can never practice again. Ditto any other doctors doing this. I did see one comment on Facebook from someone saying this sort of nonsense won't help people who are vaccine anxious, this will just make them worse. I'm inclined to agree.

Sorry for my strong language but I am so sick of "medical professionals" doing this sort of crap, or morons on social media saying the vaccine will kill you, it's all a hoax, it's just a flu, blah blah blah...it feels like it's just never going to end :(

I am interested in whether the medical council go to war for her now.

We will see I guess.

They are the elites. Bottom line, one rule for them another rule for the rest of us.

But at present we have multiple antivaxx Doctors practicing and the Medical council has not removed any of them.

Just keep swimming...

Sup

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Ultimate Geek

#2829046 9-Dec-2021 00:10

Eva888: This came up in my news feed today and is very worrying.

https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/120-children-hospitalized-province-suspends-pfizer-vaccine-batch-4397748.html

This is why it is an advantage to be a little behind other countries in the timing of vaccine roll outs.

I would like to see more data. This is very general and there is no way to check these findings...yet.

First thing you want to know is why these children? why the incidence of moderate to severe reactions in this one group which the story hints at being disproportionate to the global roll out.

I would very much like to know what the incidence of Covid is in Vietnam, in the affected region among kids. We could be looking at what happens when you vaccinate a bunch of Asymptomatic Kids with Covid before the illness is cleared.

I followed the Vietnam Delta wave for a time, to see if Ho Chi Minh city could contain Delta. They did for quite a long time, then it escaped.

I followed Sydney for the same reason and Melbourne, to see if Delta could be stopped regionally.

All good prep for what happened here.

Vietnam has excellent Covid management. One of the best in South east Asia, this story is worrying, but the missing pieces mean there may be no wider threat to other places.

Just keep swimming...

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