Another early grave filthy food pusher sees NZ as a soft target

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#1999699 20-Apr-2018 09:53

Data for bowel cancer incidence was from World Cancer Research Fund International.

There's mortality data from NZ MOH here

As mentioned, the obesity ranking tables on wikipedia use WHO data.

There's a section on epidemiology of Type 2 diabetes on wikipedia here.

As I mentioned, that's probably hugely under-diagnosed in developing/third world nations, but also as it is another disease that's age-related, like cancers, heart disease etc, raw data on mortality per 100,000 is not what should be looked at for cross-country comparisons - it needs to be age standardised. If the average age of the population is say 20 with high birth rates, but life expectancy low due to death from a multitude of other causes so that there aren't many people surviving into their 60s and beyond, then raw data on deaths from diseases of aging (which these usually are) will appear to be low compared to NZ.

I agree that many people's diet sucks big time - they're poisoning themselves - but I'd dispute that's mainly because of big macs or tacos. Stuffing your face full of Tim Tams because you think you can still do that and look like the girl on the TV ad isn't a great idea.

I think I read in Denmark that they've banned ALL food advertising on TV at times where childrens shows are screened. I think that's a great idea - it saves all the arguing about what's healthy and what's not - guaranteeing that all unhealthy food is eliminated from those advertising slots - and I'm 100% certain that not one child will suffer even slightly - let alone starve to death because they weren't reminded to eat by a TV ad. Perhaps they should extend that to banning all food advertising on TV at all times - because many adults don't seem to be a hell of a lot smarter.

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#1999728 20-Apr-2018 11:04

networkn: Which authorative sources?

Quit baiting. You are as capable of looking these things up as I am. For bowel cancer you can start here. Whether we are in first place or not, there is no dispute that we have an unusually high rate. This must be due to something. I have not seen any research specifically relating it to junk food and I have not claimed to, but there is no question it is related to diet in general.

OECD statistics placing us third-fattest after USA and Mexico here. It has been established beyond any doubt that obesity causes many health problems and is directly responsible for the type 2 diabetes epidemic. There is also no question that fast food is fattening. The connection seems pretty obvious unless you are particularly obtuse.

You can look up the diabetes stats yourself. Try G-O-O-G-L-E. It is a search engine.

Statistics are always massageable. Fred may be technically correct but I think he is quibbling. We have unhealthy rates of bowel cancer, obesity and diabetes in this country. That comes from somewhere. Research indicates overwhelmingly that it comes from diet. We can choose to do something about it or not. And with that I am out of here. This has now moved beyond the point of reasonable discussion.

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#1999733 20-Apr-2018 11:09

Rikkitic:

networkn: Which authorative sources?

Quit baiting. You are as capable of looking these things up as I am. For bowel cancer you can start here. Whether we are in first place or not, there is no dispute that we have an unusually high rate.

It's not baiting. Whoever is claiming something has the burden of proof.

Rikkitic:

This must be due to something.

Yes but you have not demonstrated it.

Rikkitic:

I have not seen any research specifically relating it to junk food and I have not claimed to, but there is no question it is related to diet in general.

If you have not seen research linked to your claims you can't positively claim it.

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#1999740 20-Apr-2018 11:17

OK, I give up. I think the points I am making are valid ones but I don't have the energy to argue them any further. I guess people here just love their junk food too much. Over and out.

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#1999742 20-Apr-2018 11:20

Rikkitic:

OK, I give up. I think the points I am making are valid ones but I don't have the energy to argue them any further. I guess people here just love their junk food too much. Over and out.

You gave no evidence. You clearly said you did not see research to support your claims. A debate requires evidence. An opinion isn't valid evidence.

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#1999743 20-Apr-2018 11:22

Of course, I can google my OWN stats, but your stats are technically incorrect so I asked what YOUR sources were.

You can make stats say anything depending on how they are presented.

No-one is disputing unhealthy eating is causing issues in NZ, the dispute is around who is responsible and what can be done about it and how far we should go to protect people from themselves.

I do not support Labours Nanny state view of controlling everything bad that people want to do to themselves, but equally, I do support facilitating education and offering people incentives to completing that education. Punishing people into eating healthily is a lazy way to resolve an issue and ultimately doesn't work. Something you should already understand.

PLENTY is being done around unhealthy eating. Access and awareness of whole foods in NZ has improved exponentially. Food Markets are everywhere, many restaurants and cafes are focused on seasonal ingredients and even fast food outlets are making changes around providing nutritional information, and offering healthy choices. McDonalds has turned over a new leaf in this regard and as someone who HATES eating McD's with passion on the whole, I will admit the quality of their meals has improved significantly. My kids are offered fruit instead of chips. Fruit is provided free at supermarkets for Kids, which is an outstanding initiative. Supermarkets have taken HUGE strides in the way they present foods.

Having said that, those places are in business to make money, and I understand the fact that continue to offer the stuff that tastes great too, even if it's unhealthy.

I live in Auckland, I am a foodie, I follow restaurant openings etc. I can tell you that places that sell decent food, are more prolific than places that sell soley crap.

Almost every single eating choice is catered for now. Vegan, Vegetarian, Gluten free.

You need take a *proper* look at the landscape as it relates to food in NZ.

I will, however, admit, that for people on very limited budgets, the choices are less so, though community gardens are huge in Auckland, and are big in South Auckland, and a lot of those are sponsored by businesses and provide free fruit and vegetables to families if they want them. Land is supplied, along with tools and facilities, all people need to put in, is their own time. There are even community gardens in the middle of the Auckland CBD, and the number of those, is growing all the time. It's awesome.

This year, I intend for my business to get involved with one of these gardens to provide a boost to their funding.

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#1999746 20-Apr-2018 11:27

Clap clap. I mean it.

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#1999749 20-Apr-2018 11:31

Rikkitic:

networkn: Which authorative sources?

Statistics are always massageable. Fred may be technically correct but I think he is quibbling. We have unhealthy rates of bowel cancer, obesity and diabetes in this country. That comes from somewhere. Research indicates overwhelmingly that it comes from diet. We can choose to do something about it or not. And with that I am out of here. This has now moved beyond the point of reasonable discussion.

Whoa.

The "quibbling" appears to be entirely on your part. You are raising objections about trivial stuff when @Fred99 has given clear references, provided lucid reasoning, been reasonable in criticism and has not resorted to rhetorical techniques to target what you've said.

You say "Fred may be technically correct" when @Fred99 appears to be much more plainly "correct". You also prefaced your comment on Fred with the phrase "Statistics are always massageable." Readers will clearly infer that you are saying that Fred is doing some of that massaging. Yet, he doesn't appear to be doing anything like that. He doesn't appear to have "moved beyond the point of reasonable discussion." He at least is backing up his views with supporting data. He provided the "technical" data when you did not.

I interpret what you say is that any request for you to provide supporting information is considered unreasonable. I know you have history with some GZ users but "reasonable discussion" should focus on the message and not so much on the messenger.

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#1999771 20-Apr-2018 12:06

I feel I have said everything I can to support the point I was trying to make. If that is not enough I don't know what else to add. I am not attacking Fred and I did not mean to imply that he was massaging the facts. I was only referring to the unreliability of statistics in the sense that they are always subject to interpretation and can therefore be used to prove just about anything. That is just as true of any statistics I might come up with as it is of anyone else's.

I did provide supporting information so I don't see that as a valid criticism. But I am frankly exhausted with this discussion and would like to bow out. I said what I believe, as clearly as I can. It is up to others to take it or leave it.

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#2000306 21-Apr-2018 14:42

big thread so apologise if already said but just my opinion.

I don't eat the fast food as most is horrible and costs way too much. I struggle to see how families that purport (and those that do it for them) have little choice when there is heaps just buy vegeies as they are cheaper than most fast foods.

I see as simply people making bad choices and that won't charge regardless of what the government does, too many taxes already we should be teaching people about choices not taxing them to make them stop.

I also like the freedom of choice and don't believe the government should be making it for me.

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#2000408 21-Apr-2018 19:25

A big problem is lack of time to prepare and cook food. And there is the high cost of high protein foods. Often even low grade beef mince costs more than $10 per KG at my local supermarket. So lots of people try to save money by using foods such as bread, potatoes, rice, pasta etc as the base of most meals. But such foods are mostly simple sugars. And the above ingredients are also much cheaper than meats and other high protein foods such as dairy. So lots of fast foods tend to be very low protein.

I remember seeing a study that found that people tend to eat until they have eaten enough protein. Give people low protein foods, and they will overeat. As if you eats lots of carbs, not long later you will feel hungry again. Yet eat a big piece of steak or something else that is high protein, and you will feel full for ages. Sorry I don't have a link to that study.

Convenience - I have had plenty of days as a tradie, where Mc Donalds was practically the only option. No time to prepare, cook, and eat breakfast at home. On site, no access to a microwave let alone a full kitchen. Easy to swing by the Drive Thru while going between jobs, or on a trip to get parts for the job. And eat the meal while stuck at the many traffic lights in Auckland. Get home, tired after a long day. I can't be bothered preparing, cooking, and cleaning. Just for 1 meal for 1 person.

I try to manage the above by getting heat and eat meals delivered from musclechow.co.nz And when I do get fast food. I never order fries, fissy drinks, ICE cream etc. Almost always just burgers. So at least I'm getting some protein from the meat in the burger.

Yes it would be nice if every meal could be prepared from scratch at home. But for some people, that will never be realistic for them to do so. And fast food is a necessary evil.

What I think should be done - A tax on foods high in trans fats. As they are completely artificial, and are not needed for any body functions. Which means it is easy to live a healthy diet without any trans fats. Just like how it is easy to have a healthy diet without any tobacco or alcohol.

But you can't easily put taxes on naturally existing fats, sugars etc. As most fruits, vegetables etc contain sugars. And some also have fats. And it is very hard to eat protein without also eating fats and sugars. So you then end up in a legal minefield trying to define what should and should not be taxed. As a diet with no sugars and fat is difficult to achieve, and would be unlikely to be healthy. And the fast food industry will very quickly refomulate their meals to avoid as much of the tax as possible. Which is why I think that taxes should only be placed on things which are not needed for a healthy diet. If trans fats completely disappeared from all foods. It would be a win for public health.

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MikeAqua

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#2000927 23-Apr-2018 10:25

Rikkitic:

There is also no question that fast food is fattening.

No food is inherently fattening. It's about calorific balance.

I ate fast food three times last week and I lost about 800g.

What is true is that overeating can be fattening. If you eat too much it doesn't matter if you are consuming, fast food, slow food or soul food, you are likely to gain weight.

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#2000935 23-Apr-2018 10:49

I got shot down over evidence references and I didn't have the energy to pursue this any further. I don't really want to go back into it. But the Internet is full of links pertaining to this, some quite authoritative, others less so. Most seem to agree that fast food is high in calories, low in nutrition. Here is one. Obviously, weight gain has to do with more than a single factor. Your age, physical activity, and other factors all make up part of the balance. Junk foods manage to be cheap and filling by containing a lot of fat and sugar. They make it easier to 'overeat' without realising it by being energy-dense. I believe there is plenty of convincing evidence that they contribute to weight gain. Some foods are more 'inherently fattening' than others. There is no question about that. Common sense also says that the enormous increase in average weight in countries like the USA (and New Zealand) in the past decades must be due to something. I don't know if there is specific evidence linking this to fast food but logic would suggest that there could be, might be, and probably is a connection.

A single anecdote doesn't prove anything. There will always be individuals who don't gain weight, or even lose it, regardless of what they eat. That says nothing about large-scale trends. But I am tired of arguing this. Eat what you like.

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#2000941 23-Apr-2018 11:10

Nom! I can't wait for Taco Bell! So cheap and yummy!

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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#2000976 23-Apr-2018 11:47

Enjoy.

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