2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

Forums › Health and fitness › 2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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4243 posts

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#2548887 24-Aug-2020 16:32

Oblivian:

grimwulf:

Righto.

Masks are mandatory.

Without meaningful enforcement or penalties, people will simply not comply - the same idiots that went to the beach at the weekend are the same ones that will be cramming themselves on board buses and trains and planes and refusing to wear masks.

If it isn't point blank, no mask, no travel, call the police - then these types won't comply.

Even then they'll behave like children - wear it to board then take it off or slip it down below their chin - "what? I'm still wearing it?".

*On public transportation.

And in a week.. so that same legal follow up and any potential incursions they can use as part of it can be worked out.

And it's going to be a requirement of entry. So the company will be refusing to move if one tries it on.

cool make the bus drivers do the work of the police , that will do down well

Common sense is not as common as you think.

Handle9

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#2548890 24-Aug-2020 16:35

vexxxboy:

mattwnz:

We already have fines for other infringements of rules. This is isn't any different, but potentially very damaging to the economy if they cause it to spread. Australia are doing it, and I haven't seen much criticism of their rules around fining over not wearing masking, or being out, nor of them charging people or their isolation stay.. Some people will only take notice when it hits them in their pocket. I mean we can get fined hundreds for parking fines, or making a simple driving error.

As I suspected,the current lockdowns will continue for nearly another week for all of NZ.

do fines really work, i never go the speed limit and have never been caught going over it,Mobile phones in cars, the fines dont seem to stop people doing it , littering fines dont stop people, i could go on . If people want to do something then the threat of a fine wont stop them.

If there is a real risk of being fined then they work. If, like red light running and phone usage, they are rarely enforced then they are a waste of time.

There is a fairly large thread on here dedicated to whining about enforcement of the bus lanes on Khyber pass. Most of the people fined there won't do it again.

PolicyGuy

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#2548892 24-Aug-2020 16:36

tdgeek:

mattwnz:

Instant fines people for not wearing masks(make mask wearing mandatory first in level 3). Fine people for not following the rules.

Actually Id go fines. They have to hurt. Poor person gets fined $100 for mild flouting, that will hurt when IRD takes it from their next pay/benefit. Bigly. Keep doubling it. On a decent salary, ramp it up but it must be taken by the IRD from pay or bank, and quick. None of this $5 a week BS that removes the penalty.

There are two problems with fines.

One is that they are uneven: a $250 fine is a lot of money for the cleaner on Adult Minimum but nothing to the CEO on $400k.
An answer is to change the law to make fines income proportional - this is not at all original. Summary Courts Martial often fine military malefactors something like "one week's pay" - that's $800 for a private but $3000 for a Colonel.
Another is that some people won't / don't /can't pay them - a young friend of one of my kids racked up over $10k for no warrant / after 10pm on Restricted / continuous loss of traction (i.e. a driving hoon) and could never pay it, so ended up with 200 hours 'community service' a few months' weekends picking up roadside rubbish

Not sure what the answer is, I guess fines will make some people take notice

Oblivian

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#2548894 24-Aug-2020 16:39

vexxxboy:

cool make the bus drivers do the work of the police , that will do down well

Can't be picky at this 1 pandemic'd subject. When we have other similar cases that people seem to adhere to just fine.

Bar tenders playing police and refusing to serve drunk and disorderly to uphold their end of the licencing law

Bouncers doing work of police and refusing entry when not wearing the right clothes.

Managers refusing entry to business because something worn breaches the H&S requirements.

Noone tends to question those cases.

Sure, not the same level of patronage perhaps. But in many areas there's always someone that has to play the enforcement bad guy who isn't actually an officer.

kingdragonfly

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#2548901 24-Aug-2020 16:57

Below was published shortly before Sunday, when the Food and Drug Administration gave emergency approval for expanded use of antibody-rich blood plasma to help hospitalized coronavirus patients, allowing President Trump, who has been pressuring the agency to move faster to address the pandemic, to claim progress on the eve of the Republican convention.

New York Times: F.D.A.’s Emergency Approval of Blood Plasma Is Now on Hold

Government health leaders including Dr. Francis S. Collins and Dr. Anthony S. Fauci urged caution last week, citing weak data from the country’s largest plasma study.

Last week, just as the Food and Drug Administration was preparing to issue an emergency authorization for blood plasma as a Covid-19 treatment, a group of top federal health officials including Dr. Francis S. Collins and Dr. Anthony S. Fauci intervened, arguing that emerging data on the treatment was too weak, according to two senior administration officials.

The authorization is on hold for now as more data is reviewed, according to H. Clifford Lane, the clinical director at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. An emergency approval could still be issued in the near future, he said.

Donated by people who have survived the disease, antibody-rich plasma is considered safe. President Trump has hailed it as a “beautiful ingredient” in the veins of people who have survived Covid-19.

But clinical trials have not proved whether plasma can help people fighting the coronavirus.

Several top health officials — led by Dr. Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health; Dr. Fauci, the government’s top infectious disease expert; and Dr. Lane — urged their colleagues last week to hold off, citing recent data from the country’s largest plasma study, run by the Mayo Clinic. They thought the study’s data to date was not strong enough to warrant an emergency approval.

“The three of us are pretty aligned on the importance of robust data through randomized control trials, and that a pandemic does not change that,” Dr. Lane said in an interview on Tuesday.
...

Jas777

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#2548905 24-Aug-2020 17:12

Re getting bus drivers to enforce mask use. Don't need that I am sure there are plenty of people who would enjoy getting on the buses are making people wear masks.

But why only buses? The virus spread in churches and workplaces also. Should be mandatory there. Actually any public place.

Sad thing is we going to be doing this until end of next year. Can see another 2 lockdowns.

In total including interest the cost to NZ is going to be 100,000,000,000+.

Handle9

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#2548913 24-Aug-2020 17:19

PolicyGuy:

tdgeek:

Actually Id go fines. They have to hurt. Poor person gets fined $100 for mild flouting, that will hurt when IRD takes it from their next pay/benefit. Bigly. Keep doubling it. On a decent salary, ramp it up but it must be taken by the IRD from pay or bank, and quick. None of this $5 a week BS that removes the penalty.

There are two problems with fines.

One is that they are uneven: a $250 fine is a lot of money for the cleaner on Adult Minimum but nothing to the CEO on $400k.
An answer is to change the law to make fines income proportional - this is not at all original. Summary Courts Martial often fine military malefactors something like "one week's pay" - that's $800 for a private but $3000 for a Colonel.
Another is that some people won't / don't /can't pay them - a young friend of one of my kids racked up over $10k for no warrant / after 10pm on Restricted / continuous loss of traction (i.e. a driving hoon) and could never pay it, so ended up with 200 hours 'community service' a few months' weekends picking up roadside rubbish

Not sure what the answer is, I guess fines will make some people take notice

Do you know many CEOs? The ones I have dealt with would rather cut off their arms than get fined.

Fines are effective for mass enforcement, that's why they get used for speeding. Of course some people will ignore them but for most people they are an effective deterrent for crimes of carelessness.

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kingdragonfly

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#2548929 24-Aug-2020 17:57

Trump's personal lawyer supports Church pastor John MacArthur directly. Recently the pastor has claimed to talk to Trump, and Trump thanked him for taking a stand, ignoring public health orders.

Religion News: Church pastor John MacArthur believes the Bible trumps COVID-19 public health orders. Legal scholars say no

For the past two Sundays, Grace Community Church pastor John MacArthur has defied California’s COVID-19 regulations by opening the doors of his church, allowing un-masked congregants to sing in close proximity to each other.

Lawyers for the church say that Grace Community Church and MacArthur could face $1,000 a day in fines for doing so.

Church leaders say they will follow the Bible instead of health regulations.

"We will obey God rather than men. We're going to be faithful to our Lord," MacArthur told his congregants in a July 31 video. "We're going to leave the results to him."

MacArthur and the church's elders say Grace Community Church's actions are founded on biblical principles. According to a statement, church leaders believe that the government is charged with protecting civic order and well-being. But the government can't dictate "the doctrine, practice, or polity of the church."

Meeting together in person and singing together are commanded in the Bible, say church leaders. To stop meeting or singing would be to disobey God.

"As His people, we are subject to His will and commands as revealed in Scripture," the statement reads. "Therefore we cannot and will not acquiesce to a government-imposed moratorium on our weekly congregational worship or other regular corporate gatherings. Compliance would be disobedience to our Lord's clear commands."

That approach is unlikely to hold up in court, say constitutional experts. While the government can't tell people what to believe, it can restrict their actions. That includes restricting religious practices during a pandemic.

"We have rights from the Constitution, not the Bible," said Eric J. Segall, a law professor at Georgia State. "Biblical duties don't trump our laws. Period. Full stop."

General applicable laws don't specifically target religion and aren't discriminatory among religions, Segall said.

For example, Segall said, some Native American tribes use drugs as part of religious ceremonies.

If a law was passed without regard to religion, but to deter other illegal conduct such as the use of drugs, "there is no constitutional claim against that," he said.
...

Handle9

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#2548931 24-Aug-2020 18:00

kingdragonfly: Trump's personal lawyer supports Church pastor John MacArthur directly. Recently the pastor has claimed to talk to Trump, and Trump thanked him for taking a stand, ignoring public health orders.

Religion News: Church pastor John MacArthur believes the Bible trumps COVID-19 public health orders. Legal scholars say no

For the past two Sundays, Grace Community Church pastor John MacArthur has defied California’s COVID-19 regulations by opening the doors of his church, allowing un-masked congregants to sing in close proximity to each other.

Lawyers for the church say that Grace Community Church and MacArthur could face $1,000 a day in fines for doing so.

Church leaders say they will follow the Bible instead of health regulations.

"We will obey God rather than men. We're going to be faithful to our Lord," MacArthur told his congregants in a July 31 video. "We're going to leave the results to him."

MacArthur and the church's elders say Grace Community Church's actions are founded on biblical principles. According to a statement, church leaders believe that the government is charged with protecting civic order and well-being. But the government can't dictate "the doctrine, practice, or polity of the church."

Meeting together in person and singing together are commanded in the Bible, say church leaders. To stop meeting or singing would be to disobey God.

"As His people, we are subject to His will and commands as revealed in Scripture," the statement reads. "Therefore we cannot and will not acquiesce to a government-imposed moratorium on our weekly congregational worship or other regular corporate gatherings. Compliance would be disobedience to our Lord's clear commands."

That approach is unlikely to hold up in court, say constitutional experts. While the government can't tell people what to believe, it can restrict their actions. That includes restricting religious practices during a pandemic.

"We have rights from the Constitution, not the Bible," said Eric J. Segall, a law professor at Georgia State. "Biblical duties don't trump our laws. Period. Full stop."

General applicable laws don't specifically target religion and aren't discriminatory among religions, Segall said.

For example, Segall said, some Native American tribes use drugs as part of religious ceremonies.

If a law was passed without regard to religion, but to deter other illegal conduct such as the use of drugs, "there is no constitutional claim against that," he said.
...

What is the point of these endless political stories? If you've got something to say about them then I get it but just spamming the thread seems pointless.

Reanalyse

381 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2548932 24-Aug-2020 18:00

Oblivian:

grimwulf:

Righto.

Masks are mandatory.

Without meaningful enforcement or penalties, people will simply not comply - the same idiots that went to the beach at the weekend are the same ones that will be cramming themselves on board buses and trains and planes and refusing to wear masks.

If it isn't point blank, no mask, no travel, call the police - then these types won't comply.

Even then they'll behave like children - wear it to board then take it off or slip it down below their chin - "what? I'm still wearing it?".

*On public transportation.

And in a week.. so that same legal follow up and any potential incursions they can use as part of it can be worked out.

And it's going to be a requirement of entry. So the company will be refusing to move if one tries it on.

Extend the bus drivers telemetry to allow the driver send an alert if someone is stroppy with mask, police meet at next convenient stop.

mattwnz

20141 posts

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#2548978 24-Aug-2020 18:13

Jas777: Re getting bus drivers to enforce mask use. Don't need that I am sure there are plenty of people who would enjoy getting on the buses are making people wear masks.

But why only buses? The virus spread in churches and workplaces also. Should be mandatory there. Actually any public place.
.

Yes they should be. They claim they are recommending mask use, but many people won't do anything unless it is actually required.Workplaces should be mandatory IMO, especially in Auckland at the moment.

Bus drivers may not anyone on a bus unless they are wearing a mask, but I can't see them being able to do much if people remove them while on the bus.

I am not sure how essential they are in large outdoor open air spaces, eg if you go for a walk in the park and you don't come close to people. I think common sense needs to be followed.

ezbee

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#2548988 24-Aug-2020 18:25

French naturist camp hit by 'very worrying' Covid outbreak
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/24/french-naturist-camp-hit-by-very-worrying-covid-outbreak

""
The Cap d’Agde resort in the Herault region, hugely popular among naturists, saw 38 positive tests on Monday and another 57 on Wednesday, the regional health authority said.

The rate of infection was four times higher among naturists in the resort than in the village itself, it added. Another 50 holidaymakers had also tested positive after returning home and results of more tests were expected next week.
""

I suppose its the crowding together for meals and barbeques not sunning in the buff and volleyball that is the issue.

kingdragonfly

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#2549007 24-Aug-2020 19:07

Handle9: What is the point of these endless political stories? If you've got something to say about them then I get it but just spamming the thread seems pointless.

In a perfect world, public health experts would dictate how we'd get out of this pandemic, and everyone from presidents and prime ministers to school principles to church leaders to business chamber chief executives would defer to the experts.

If you know of a mystical, harmonious valley, gently guided from a lamasery where COVID-19 decisions are made purely on reason, without politics, I'd like to know about it.

Not all politics are bad. Russians insane vaccination regime, China's literally dragging quarantine breakers out of their homes or even one of Trump's touted treatments may all be the right decisions.

So for better or worse, you can't take the politics out of the pandemics.

The "Spanish flu" is called the "Spanish Flu" because everyone but Spanish politicians denied its existence.

Politics continue to be one of the biggest threats facing the global campaign to eradicate malaria.

We are repeating history again.

tdgeek

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#2549011 24-Aug-2020 19:10

mattwnz:

We already have fines for other infringements of rules. This is isn't any different, but potentially very damaging to the economy if they cause it to spread. Australia are doing it, and I haven't seen much criticism of their rules around fining over not wearing masking, or being out, nor of them charging people or their isolation stay.. Some people will only take notice when it hits them in their pocket. I mean we can get fined hundreds for parking fines, or making a simple driving error.

As I suspected,the current lockdowns will continue for nearly another week for all of NZ.

If I stand next to someone, even though 2m is the rule what happens? A LONG time ago in our Level 4, flouters were everywhere, made the news, didn't make the ticket (fine). In the ChCh EQ's a few dudes stole gas bottles from hard hit suburbs. Got arrested, held in custody for 3 months as Courts were closed/busy, bugger. Thats a punishment. This virus is a lot worse, but its education and let offs. Like I said, if I was poor, taking a 100 bucks off my dole would really hurt me. Thats a punishment. Scale that up using PDI as the base, but no, its education and assistance after Ive broken the rules. Thats why the next weekend Id go with my mates for a beach party (not me, an example). It doesn't have to be draconian but it has to hurt, but it doesnt hurt, as you will get let off.

tdgeek

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#2549014 24-Aug-2020 19:14

concordnz: @vexxboy The fact that you "never go over the speed limit" - proves that fines work (when enforced) - sadly the Police are "missing in action" with their legal responsibility to enforce the Law around Covid.

They have the powers & tools - they are simply 'asleep at the wheel'. - their lack of action is 50% response for the willingness of people to flout the rules (no obvious concequences)

If they stepped up & did their jobs - we would have far better compliance.

Agree, but I'm not aware of the legalities of new fines for flouters. I recall early on they had NO power, so turned up, gave a "warning" and drove off. I think that was both here and AUS

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