Nissan LEAF - General

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Circumspice
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#1956370 13-Feb-2018 14:41

@krazykid and @aredwood agree with those factors that potentially impact SOH i.e. covariates of SOH

The question is impact of each on SOH. A potential owner who wants to preserve SOH (especially 2nd hand and the manufacturer's battery warranty not available to them) wants to know how to navigate those covariates e.g.

- is fast charging only a problem if it causes temperature to rise above some threshold, or is it a threshold of number of fast charging events per X period of time?

- how does age-related degradation vary between e.g. 2011 24 kWh, 2013 24 kWh, 2016 30 kWh and 2018 40 kWh? If there's there's a big difference, then e.g. data for 2011 24 kWh batteries are of limited use when looking at 2016 30 kWh.

- if odometer is a covariate of SOH that is independent of other covariates (including number of charges, age of battery), is there a difference between going 5000 km in a year by a) driving 10 km trips x 2/day x 5 day/wk x 50wk/y vs b) 50 km trips x 2/day x 5day/wk x 10 wk/y? Or is there some threshold of frequent longer distance trips per X period of time that accelerates degradation?

- etc

At the moment, to preserve SOH, a very conservative interpretation of the data I've seen is to go short distances, rarely fast charge, newer batteries are better, avoid flooring accelerator etc. But that may be excessive, and maybe one doesn't have to do that to preserve SOH. The trouble is, we just don't know. Hence my approach now is just to largely ignore the covariates and just enjoy the drive.

KrazyKid

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#1956411 13-Feb-2018 16:05

Which brings us back nicely to flip the fleet data. If they get a large enough sample size (especially for each year) we may get some answers to some questions.

Personally I'm a very new leaf owner (purchased Dec 17) and the fact that my car has settled on a battery SoH around what other similar aged/Km cars has is a comfort to me in that I probably haven't got a lemon.
Yes its a small sample size, but still it helps me feel happy about my purchase.

For my situation the car makes economical sense and in 7-10 years it will still suit my for short commutes around town.
I'm also happy about the environmental benefits.

I am beginning to get use the changes in my habits and like you say I am now starting to enjoy the nice drive and not worry about the battery and range so much.

As it happens my driving requirements will suit mostly the conservative approach which is a bonus.

SaltyNZ

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#1956457 13-Feb-2018 16:55

KrazyKid:

For my situation the car makes economical sense and in 7-10 years it will still suit my for short commutes around town.
I'm also happy about the environmental benefits.

Same with us. I've had my Leaf for about a month now and it gets me to work and back with range to spare for a side trip if necessary. In, say, 5 years it might reach the point where I have to charge during the day, but at that point it will still have more than enough range for my wife's commute, or for the kids - one of whom will be old enough to drive by then - to use it.

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afe66

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#1956477 13-Feb-2018 17:19

I hope all the leaf owners here have signed up with flipthefleet.

RUKI

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#1956540 13-Feb-2018 19:31

langi27:

......A well looked after old battery will give you much better life and thus hold its resale value.

Arguable statement IMO about "old" battery having "resale value". Any multi-module battery stack is made of non-identical modules which are not cooled equally in a stack and degrade differently with time regardless of how carefully you've "looked after" them. Leaf or Tesla or any other EV/PHV/Hybrid - battery re-builders had already observed individual modules failures. But in comparison to hybrids where you range is not directly dependent on the remaining battery capacity and Prius can still be running perfectly well with ~15% original capacity left in the pack. That is where hybrids do hold value, especailly with the price of new battery ~4K NZD and rebuild battery in a $1-2K NZD Range.

One module in Leaf could degrade spontaneously and significantly reduce your driving range and diminish the car value. We do not have (in NZ) yet abundance of high capacity Leaf modules to offer cheap quick fix for those situations.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

ANglEAUT

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#1956581 13-Feb-2018 20:15

afe66: I hope all the leaf owners here have signed up with flipthefleet.

Not just Leaf, but all EV/PHEV owners. They are looking for a wider sample size.

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

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SaltyNZ

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#1956583 13-Feb-2018 20:20

Wouldn't you want to look at PHEVs separately to EVs?

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paulchinnz

Circumspice
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#1956589 13-Feb-2018 20:35

Agree you would for analysis, and even between EVs (e.g. probably silly to lump Model S with Leaf), but flipthefleet interested in data from any EV with 4 wheels

Linuxluver

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#1956599 13-Feb-2018 21:02

MikeAqua:
Linuxluver:

The last one spent $8 billion dollars helping out the trucking industry....

They spent that on roads, which everyone can use - including EV owners. And unlike free-loading EV owners, trucking companies actually pay to use roads.

EV owners aren't freeloading.

The value of their reduced carbon emissions is being recognized.

It's the ICE cars now freeloading on emissions. The cost of their carbon isn't high enough to alter the destructive behaviours.

Let's end that freeloading.

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afe66

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#1957006 14-Feb-2018 12:22

This is the leaf forum.

Move the non leaf posts to the ev forum.

afe66

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#1957007 14-Feb-2018 12:23

IcI:
afe66: I hope all the leaf owners here have signed up with flipthefleet.

Not just Leaf, but all EV/PHEV owners. They are looking for a wider sample size.

True, but this is the Leaf forum..

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old3eyes

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#1957026 14-Feb-2018 12:54

Linuxluver:
MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

The last one spent $8 billion dollars helping out the trucking industry....

They spent that on roads, which everyone can use - including EV owners. And unlike free-loading EV owners, trucking companies actually pay to use roads.

EV owners aren't freeloading.

The value of their reduced carbon emissions is being recognized.

It's the ICE cars now freeloading on emissions. The cost of their carbon isn't high enough to alter the destructive behaviours.

Let's end that freeloading.

Yes EV owners are freeloading. Trolley Buses were all electric and had to pay the same weight RUC as a diesel bus so it's time for EV owners to pay RUC as well.

Regards,

Old3eyes

Linuxluver

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#1957040 14-Feb-2018 13:13

langi27:

It will take a while for people to get their heads around this.

Apart from the general aesthetics (wear and tear of the paint and upholstery), you wouldn't generally select a newer EV car with poor SoH over a old EV with excellent SoH.

A well looked after old battery will give you much better life and thus hold its resale value.

True.

My 30kWh UK LEAF is now 2 years old and the battery is at 92% SoH after 56,060km.

Things I've learned:

1. The car loves to be used. Just drive it. Every day, if possible. Most days if not.

2. The battery doesn't like getting too hot for too long. (basically over 48C for periods of hours....and try not to charge it when that hot).

3. You can 'undo' some of the degradation / resistance by working the battery - long drives and several fast charges, but keep the heat down. It's possible to regain 3%-5% in SoH across a few days doing this.

4. Charge the LEAF battery to 100%, fully-balance, lights out maybe once / week. Then be sure to drive it within a day or less. Batteries do't like being at 100% for long periods. The cathode builds resistance.

5. You can shed heat reasonably easily by driving gently at 75kph / 80kph when the ambient temperature is under 20C. Faster downhill also works.....the more airflow under the car, the better, as long as you're not using more than one dot of power (or occasionally two). I can lose 1.5C every 10 minutes on a cool night (17C) driving on a quiet back road. This gives you head room for the next fast charge. Winter doesn't matter......but in the peak of summer doing long drives (500km+) at night works best.

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dolsen

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#1957043 14-Feb-2018 13:16

old3eyes:

Yes EV owners are freeloading. Trolley Buses were all electric and had to pay the same weight RUC as a diesel bus so it's time for EV owners to pay RUC as well.

OT but, as part of the

Road User Charges (Exemption Period for Heavy Electric RUC Vehicles) Order 2017

Trolley busses would not have had to pay road user charges from 1 September 2017 till 31 December 2025. Luckily however, the wonderful council decided to remove the visual pollution of the trolley bus wires and replaced it with the real pollution of diesel busses (which do have to pay RUC charges). Great move...

Linuxluver

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#1957048 14-Feb-2018 13:19

old3eyes:

Yes EV owners are freeloading. Trolley Buses were all electric and had to pay the same weight RUC as a diesel bus so it's time for EV owners to pay RUC as well.

You're freeloading driving an ICE car without paying any additional carbon tax.

The RUC exemption for EVs is recognition by the last government and the current one that not emitting carbon does have value.

The "freeloading" meme is pure, stinking BS that ignores the value in not adding to carbon emissions. Clearly, being zero emissions is worth at least $62 / 1000km.

In any case....the government doesn't agree with you...and nor did the last one.

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