Nissan LEAF - General

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#1963118 23-Feb-2018 18:14

I'm sorry polar bears, but if I was going to spend $60k on a car it wouldn't be a grey import Nissan Leaf

Also sorry if that's off topic, just seems crazy money for a small runabout

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#1967957 4-Mar-2018 17:00

wellygary:

RUKI:

But 60K? All of a sudden there are many other choices including much more luxurious (second hand) cars (including Lexus and Camry Hybrids) for that (or less) money... and new Ioniq from the dealer with NZ warranty...

New e-Golf at 62K looks really nice too

Sadly the e-Golf has already been killed off so there won't be a future model to push prices down and force an upgrade cycle down to the second-hand market.

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#1970152 6-Mar-2018 20:35

shk292:

I'm sorry polar bears, but if I was going to spend $60k on a car it wouldn't be a grey import Nissan Leaf

Also sorry if that's off topic, just seems crazy money for a small runabout

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1562907008.htm?rsqid=d454a1f4a0924a7fb621fc3ad83308fd

The above advertisement is for a new model 40kWh Nissan Leaf priced at $54,990, a bit of an improvement on $60K (unless it's a mistake).

However, there are four other 40kWh Leafs currently on TradeMe, three at $65,990 and one at $62,990. I'm not sure why the price of the one above is "only" $54,990 (probably not the high spec G model) but at least this is a step in the right direction. However, a deposit of 10% to secure this vehicle is perhaps a bit high?

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#1970257 6-Mar-2018 23:26

shk292:

I'm sorry polar bears, but if I was going to spend $60k on a car it wouldn't be a grey import Nissan Leaf

Also sorry if that's off topic, just seems crazy money for a small runabout

I'll agree.

Though the LEAF is pretty roomy inside. Someone who rode in mine once called it a "Tardis" because the car looks small on the outside.......while having that "big car feel" on the inside. I'll agree. I'm 6'4" and found the Audi Quattro uncomfortably small.....while LEAF is roomy. I have to pull the driver seat UP.....which is almost unheard of for me. Usually I have the seat all the way back in most cars.....If I did that in a LEAF I'd have trouble reaching the steering.

My issue with the LEAF is the lack of a battery thermal management system. You won't even notice if your trips are typically 400-500km in a day. If you use it as a daily commutor or make the occasional trip from Auckland to Tauranga....no issues. It will barely break a sweat. But beyond that and you've had to fast charge it 3 or more times of more than 60% each...and your battery will be pretty hot (45C to 50C). The car runs OK, but the hot battery is a battery more likely to see loss of capacity sooner (in years, not days). Hot summer weather makes it harder to shed that heat just rolling along. Winter is much better from that stand point.

The new LEAF (2018 40 kWh) handles the heating issue by throttling back charging rates aggressively....so people who have driven from Auckland to Wellington find that a charge in Palmy might take 1.5 hours at 11kw when they were expecting 20 minutes at 47kw.......

I love my LEAF, but my next EV is absolutely certainly going to have a thermal management system. I do drive long distances....and the LEAF can do it, but it takes some coaxing and some patience....and I'm doing that for now because it's important for me to drive a zero emissions car. But when I get my Tesla Model 3....I won't have to compromise.

It will be about NZ$60-$70K. I won't be buying any bells or whistles. Just base model...and maybe the larger battery. I don't need the autnomous driving and won't pay extra for it.

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#1972367 10-Mar-2018 15:24

Drove my 30kWh LEAF down to Wellington on Monday and back on Thursday.

The Monday trip was conventional - down SH1 - except I chose to go Auckland -> Te Awamutu > Taupo because SH32 is much less busy and I have more scope to drive my own drive on that longer leg (130km...and uphill by over 500 metres).

No problem. I started that leg on 95% battery and finished it on 17%. Easy......though I did do 70kph for most of it. I'm actually really enjoying driving slower. You get to see things. :-) It only cost me about 20 minutes, so was well worth it. If anyone came along behind me (almost no one did) I pulled over and slowed down well before they reached me. No problem.

After that, it was normal driving as there are lot of chargers between Taupo and Wellington.

On the way back, I started off planning to go via Napier because SH1 was closed.....then learned in Dannevirk that SH1 was actually open (new bridge work canned due to bad weather) and that it was SH5 that was now closed.....due to flooding. So I turned around and went via Palmy and up SH1.

The weather was cool (11c to 15c) and raining steadily....so my battery did get warm, but I had no issues shedding heat quickly. It was great.

Here's a map of my return drive.

Interestingly, the SoH of my battery went from 90% to 93% and my available kWh went from 25.3 to 26.0. That's cool. These cars like to be driven! I also reached 60,000km on this trip. (Currently on 60,600).

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#1973168 12-Mar-2018 13:13

Had our Leaf down to the wire on Saturday night. My wife had to make a birthday cake for our niece's 16th. She drove from our place to Albany and back, plus around Albany a bit, twice (she forgot some stuff), about an hour all up on the 8A slow charger, and then about 30km to my brother-in-law's place in Dairy Flat for the party. She doesn't drive quite as economically in it as me: I had just gotten the average km/kWh up to 7.1 and it was back to 7.0 when I drove it that night. And since we were running late I drove a bit faster too.

The low battery warning came on with about 5km to go to their place. When we left (at night, so needed headlights too) I drove in Eco mode around 70-75km/hr. The range remaining went to the dreaded blinking - - - with about 5km till the Plant Barn at Silverdale, but fortunately by that stage there was only one short climb up Pine Valley Road onto the old Albany Highway and then it was all downhill to the charger. Plug in ... 4% remaining. Nice.

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#1973173 12-Mar-2018 13:21

SaltyNZ:

Had our Leaf down to the wire on Saturday night. My wife had to make a birthday cake for our niece's 16th. She drove from our place to Albany and back, plus around Albany a bit, twice (she forgot some stuff), about an hour all up on the 8A slow charger, and then about 30km to my brother-in-law's place in Dairy Flat for the party. She doesn't drive quite as economically in it as me: I had just gotten the average km/kWh up to 7.1 and it was back to 7.0 when I drove it that night. And since we were running late I drove a bit faster too.

The low battery warning came on with about 5km to go to their place. When we left (at night, so needed headlights too) I drove in Eco mode around 70-75km/hr. The range remaining went to the dreaded blinking - - - with about 5km till the Plant Barn at Silverdale, but fortunately by that stage there was only one short climb up Pine Valley Road onto the old Albany Highway and then it was all downhill to the charger. Plug in ... 4% remaining. Nice.

You should have posted a health warning with this reply, my HR just went bananas.

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#1973245 12-Mar-2018 14:20

@LinuxLuver Does the SOH generally move around so much? I'm sure it's nice to see it go up but I'm thinking it can just as easily go down by as many points.

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#1973435 12-Mar-2018 17:22

My soh went from 89% to 93% after 900km over 4 days but after a couple of weeks normal use it trended back to 89%

Linuxluver

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#1973539 12-Mar-2018 20:28

Dulouz:

@LinuxLuver Does the SOH generally move around so much? I'm sure it's nice to see it go up but I'm thinking it can just as easily go down by as many points.

I can move around, yes.

The SoH can move in both directions, yes. If I go to Australia for a week and the car isn't driven it's almost always 2%-3% lower than when I left. But take it out for a run and it soon goes back up.

What this underscores is that any measurement of battery capacity is, at best, an estimate....and the estimates will vary over time.

There will be a downward trend as the battery ages. Mine is over 2 years old and has over 60,000km on it (including almost 700 slow charges and almost 500 fast charges). It has faded slightly from 100% to the low 90s.

At this point, I'm happy with that. I would almost never let the battery go below 20% without adding some electrons.....even on a road trip.....so a decline of 5% or 10% makes absolutely no difference to how I roll. If it were to drop to 80% I may have to consider adding another charging stop into the same longer routes. But across most of SH1 and SH5 and SH2 the distance between chargers is steadily dropping as more are put in. The other day I drove from Featherston to Masterton to Woodville to Dannevirke and there would be barely more than 50km between Featherston and Masterton and a good deal less than that between each of the others. Woodville to Dannevirke is only 26km. Palmy is barely 20km from Woodville. You wouldn't need much of an EV at all to get around that area. :-)

The past couple of days just driving around Auckland I have been seeing 25km for 10% battery power......so for low speed urban running about, the range of my car is effectively 250km per charge if I only used the car around Greenlane, Ellerslie, Mt Wellington, Penrose and Panmure.

In short.....once you get used to it, range anxiety is then a newby thing.....some thing to get past.

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#1978822 16-Mar-2018 18:43

Interesting data from the flipthefleet team (http://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-leafs-soh-loss/ and note the published scientific report is not peer reviewed) re 30 kWh vs 24 kWh batteries.

There's been concern expressed elsewhere that the higher density 40 kWh battery seems to get hot more easily - maybe the 30 kWh vs 24 kWh data reflects this issue.

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#1978843 16-Mar-2018 20:04

paulchinnz:

Interesting data from the flipthefleet team (http://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-leafs-soh-loss/ and note the published scientific report is not peer reviewed) re 30 kWh vs 24 kWh batteries.

There's been concern expressed elsewhere that the higher density 40 kWh battery seems to get hot more easily - maybe the 30 kWh vs 24 kWh data reflects this issue.

Extracts from the above link:

Reported battery health (capacity to hold charge) at two years of age was estimated to be declining approximately 3 times faster on average in 30 kWh Leaf battery packs than for 24 kWh Leafs.

The reported rate of decline in 30 kWh batteries observed so far is accelerating as the cars get older.

The observed decline in reported battery health for 24 kWh Leaf batteries at 5 years is close to what Nissan estimated it to be. The observed decline so far in many 30 kWh Leaf batteries, at an age of less than 2.3 years, is already close to where Nissan estimated them to reach at 5 years of age.

We do not know for certain what the underlying causes of the observed rapid decline are, but our working hypothesis is that it relates to greater degradation at elevated temperatures and higher states of charge of the batteries.

Perhaps long trips in 30 and 40 kWh Leafs and lots of fast charging should be avoided?

Were these Leafs, which lack a battery cooling system, really designed for long trips or just for around town use with one charge per day?

It all seems to point to the fact that, if you own two vehicles, an ICE for long trips and an EV for around town, this might be a lot better for EV battery life than taking your Leaf on long trips and fast charging it several times in one day?

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#1978845 16-Mar-2018 20:15

One limitation of the flipthefleet data is that their analysis doesn't take potential covariates into account. Perhaps 30 kWh owners are more likely (than 24 kWh owners) to go for long distance drives with fast charging and ergo stress their batteries with higher temperatures.

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#1978849 16-Mar-2018 20:28

paulchinnz:

One limitation of the flipthefleet data is that their analysis doesn't take potential covariates into account. Perhaps 30 kWh owners are more likely (than 24 kWh owners) to go for long distance drives with fast charging and ergo stress their batteries with higher temperatures.

It will be interesting to see the statistics that come out in the future for the heat problems and degradation of Nissan Leaf 40 kWh batteries, because I guess it's even more likely that 40 kWh Leaf owners will want to own just one vehicle and use this EV for long-distance drives. At least the BMW i3 has a battery cooling system and may be better suited for long-distance driving than the current Leafs?

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#1978919 16-Mar-2018 23:18

paulchinnz:

One limitation of the flipthefleet data is that their analysis doesn't take potential covariates into account. Perhaps 30 kWh owners are more likely (than 24 kWh owners) to go for long distance drives with fast charging and ergo stress their batteries with higher temperatures.

Flip the Fleet takes odometer readings into account. Its a scientific paper, well put together and submitted for peer review. The rapid battery degradation of 30kw models in NZ is real. I own one and I wouldn't recommend anyone buy a 30kw model at this time. The 24kw batteries are holding up very well though.

The 40kw models use the same chemistry as the 30kw ones, so I would stay away from those until we know more!

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