Nissan LEAF - General

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#1994666 12-Apr-2018 09:42

daparrot:

happyfunball:

daparrot:

Yes most cars have some form or over reporting but its usually in low single digit percentages but the Leaf Always is 10% more.. ( by design it seems )

The VW Golf I drove recently (2018 model) and the Leaf both underreported speed by 5km/h judging by the 'your speed' sign on the side of the road.

How are you judging the actual speed vs the speedometer?

Its been mentioned on a number of overseas forums and I have used multiple GPS devices in multiple Leaf's and its pretty much 10%

just google "leaf speedo 10 percent"

TBH I think it is conscious on the designers part to maximise the real world range of the car by minimising the actual speed being driven...while staying within the regulations. In theory that would apply to ICE cars too but the range of an ICE car isn't normally its limiting factor in most people's minds...just my $0.02

Regards FireEngine

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#1994673 12-Apr-2018 09:52

Linuxluver: Also note that virtually every car uses vacuum assisted brakes. At high altitude the brake assist doesn't work as well.

However most electric cars have regenerative braking, so less brake fade going downhill.

MarkH67

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#1994907 12-Apr-2018 14:47

Some history with EVs from Nissan:

http://www.driven.co.nz/news/lifestyle/70-year-difference-nissan-compare-their-oldest-ev-to-the-newest/?ref=nzhhome

frednz

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#1996935 16-Apr-2018 11:54

I talked to a dealer today about the alleged problem of fast battery degradation with 30kWh Nissan Leafs.

I asked whether they were still selling 30kWh Leafs and he said that he was aware of the "Flip the Fleet" report and that he wasn't concerned about it and that he was still prepared to sell 30kWh Leafs.

I asked why he wasn't concerned with the findings of the report and he said that, until they prove that the alleged battery degradation actually reduces range, then there's nothing to be concerned about.

So would you be prepared to buy a 30kWh Leaf given the findings of the "Flip the Fleet" report?

Do you think that range is adversely affected by the report's SoH findings?

FireEngine

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#1996942 16-Apr-2018 12:00

frednz:

I talked to a dealer today about the alleged problem of fast battery degradation with 30kWh Nissan Leafs.

I asked whether they were still selling 30kWh Leafs and he said that he was aware of the "Flip the Fleet" report and that he wasn't concerned about it and that he was still prepared to sell 30kWh Leafs.

I asked why he wasn't concerned with the findings of the report and he said that, until they prove that the alleged battery degradation actually reduces range, then there's nothing to be concerned about.

So would you be prepared to buy a 30kWh Leaf given the findings of the "Flip the Fleet" report?

Do you think that range is adversely affected by the report's SoH findings?

Measuring declining battery capacity IS a statement of reducing range range so I think he is being disingenuous in dismissing the report until the issue is specifically phrased in that way.

What is the Leaf battery warranty position as those 30kwh models look to hit 80% within 2-3yrs vs the estimated 5yrs

Regards FireEngine

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#1996950 16-Apr-2018 12:12

I agree, but it's true that the report doesn't specifically say that range is affected -- in fact it says this:

We have not yet tested sufficient vehicles to check that the reduction in reported battery health accurately measures reduction in maximum range of the vehicle on a single charge. Nevertheless, we believe that there is no reason to expect that the reported battery health does not broadly indicate an upper limit for the range of the vehicle.

We cannot see any reason to believe that the accelerated rate of degradation observed in reported battery capacity so far will not continue in the near future at least.

I guess if range was proven to reduce in line with the SoH findings, then reputable dealers shouldn't sell 30KwH models at all?

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gulfa

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#1996957 16-Apr-2018 12:21

I can assure you range is affected My 2016 30KWH leaf dropped a bar to eleven bars yesterday My SOH is 84.35% I regularly got 175KM on trips and around town 195+ I have definitely noticed a decline in range My trips are now in the mid 160kms and around town low 180kms. This is a UK leaf. Interestingly the bar returned today. They are still a wonderful car and I am not complaining but would hope that the future holds something for us. I am interested to see what the predictions are for battery SOH in 3-4 years and how many bars we will drop.

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#1996964 16-Apr-2018 12:32

gulfa:

I can assure you range is affected My 2016 30KWH leaf dropped a bar to eleven bars yesterday My SOH is 84.35% I regularly got 175KM on trips and around town 195+ I have definitely noticed a decline in range My trips are now in the mid 160kms and around town low 180kms. This is a UK leaf. Interestingly the bar returned today. They are still a wonderful car and I am not complaining but would hope that the future holds something for us. I am interested to see what the predictions are for battery SOH in 3-4 years and how many bars we will drop.

My top bar comes and goes too. SoH has varied between 78% and 81% in the readings I have taken. Often, it is gone when I start the car, but comes back after 10km or so down the road. Whatever the BMS is measuring, I'm definitely borderline!

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Elliemay

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#1996985 16-Apr-2018 13:01

gulfa:

I can assure you range is affected My 2016 30KWH leaf dropped a bar to eleven bars yesterday My SOH is 84.35% I regularly got 175KM on trips and around town 195+ I have definitely noticed a decline in range My trips are now in the mid 160kms and around town low 180kms. This is a UK leaf. Interestingly the bar returned today. They are still a wonderful car and I am not complaining but would hope that the future holds something for us. I am interested to see what the predictions are for battery SOH in 3-4 years and how many bars we will drop.

Gulfa, what was your SOH when you were regularly getting 175km on trips and 195+ around town? Thanks.

frednz

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#1996989 16-Apr-2018 13:04

gulfa:

I can assure you range is affected My 2016 30KWH leaf dropped a bar to eleven bars yesterday My SOH is 84.35% I regularly got 175KM on trips and around town 195+ I have definitely noticed a decline in range My trips are now in the mid 160kms and around town low 180kms. This is a UK leaf. Interestingly the bar returned today. They are still a wonderful car and I am not complaining but would hope that the future holds something for us. I am interested to see what the predictions are for battery SOH in 3-4 years and how many bars we will drop.

Yes, they are a great EV so it's a pity there is a cloud over the 30kWh model (and perhaps the 40kWh model also) on this issue.

I guess you have to expect some reduction in range as time goes on, so your 15 km drop is not huge. Over what period of time has this 15 km range drop taken place?

FireEngine

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#1997005 16-Apr-2018 13:23

frednz:

I agree, but it's true that the report doesn't specifically say that range is affected

Yep but that dealer is essentially saying "yep the fuel tank is smaller but even though the rest of the car remains the same I'm not sure range is affected" - if this was an ICE car there would be no hesitation in drawing the conclusion that reduced fuel capacity = decreased max range, its self-evident. Continuing to sell such vehicles just because no-one has yet stated "range is affected" is deliberately disingenuous IMHO.

Regards FireEngine

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FireEngine

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#1997006 16-Apr-2018 13:25

gulfa:

I am interested to see what the predictions are for battery SOH in 3-4 years and how many bars we will drop.

You can see where the graph is headed...looks to be in the 40-50% region even if the current curve remains linear to that time from now, but it is currently accelerating...

Regards FireEngine

jonathan18

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#1997028 16-Apr-2018 13:41

gulfa:
I can assure you range is affected My 2016 30KWH leaf dropped a bar to eleven bars yesterday My SOH is 84.35% I regularly got 175KM on trips and around town 195+ I have definitely noticed a decline in range My trips are now in the mid 160kms and around town low 180kms. This is a UK leaf. Interestingly the bar returned today. They are still a wonderful car and I am not complaining but would hope that the future holds something for us. I am interested to see what the predictions are for battery SOH in 3-4 years and how many bars we will drop.

Could the drop in temperature not be a contributing factor to the lower distance on the GOM? I’ve noticed our 24 kWh Leaf’s GOM reporting a lower range than it was at the height of summer - dropped from 150sh to 135sh. I’m not saying that the battery degradation isn’t resulting in a lower range, but just that seasonal variation may be in play too.

FireEngine

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#1997043 16-Apr-2018 13:48

jonathan18:Could the drop in temperature not be a contributing factor to the lower distance on the GOM? I’ve noticed our 24 kWh Leaf’s GOM reporting a lower range than it was at the height of summer - dropped from 150sh to 135sh. I’m not saying that the battery degradation isn’t resulting in a lower range, but just that seasonal variation may be in play too.

Good point but still hard to see why that would affect the 30kwh model so much more than the 24kwh...and you would expect Nissan to cover off cold weather testing in development so any issue like that <should> have shown up well before them going on sale...

Regards FireEngine

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#1997081 16-Apr-2018 14:03

frednz:

I guess you have to expect some reduction in range as time goes on, so your 15 km drop is not huge. Over what period of time has this 15 km range drop taken place?

Yes, you do. The problem is not that range drops over time. The problem is that Nissan says that most cars should drop to approximately 80% of health in approximately 5 years, but at the moment it looks like that is happening in 2 years. The reason it looks like that is because Nissan's own equipment says it is. LeafSpy isn't calculating anything - it's reading out a value that the battery management system calculates.

So to a certain extent it is possible that there is simply a bug in the BMS, and that a software update would fix it. But in the meantime, if the BMS only believes you can safely put 24kWh into a 30kWh battery, then that's all you get. That's the best case. The worst case is that the BMS is correct, and the batteries are physically degrading 2-3x faster than they should be.

Now, I know I can get 150km out of mine with some charge still to spare. That's less than the 172km range of a new 30kWh Leaf, but more than the 130km range of a new 24kWh Leaf. My SoH is ~80%, and 80% of 30kWh is 24kWh. Range reported on a full charge varies depending day to day on what time I got home (since I only have the 8A charger), phase of moon, colour of socks, whatever, but it often reports ~130km, which also agrees well with an 80% SoH.

If SoH was strictly accurate I should be seeing 130km, and getting it, but in fact I may be getting more.

The only thing that will resolve it really is a large scale controlled test. Trying to compare real-world driving range in real cars against the test standard is pointless, but if you can do controlled tests to run down a bunch of cars with different SoH from full charge to turtle mode you might see real trends. Difficulty: nobody has the time to bring their car along to a dyno for a couple of days to do repeatable tests.

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