EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

1 | ... | 337 | 338 | 339 | 340 | 341 | 342 | 343 | 344 | 345 | 346 | 347 | ... | 771

20515 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 4795

#2735914 28-Jun-2021 17:31

jonathan18:

mattwnz:

Anyone know if the telsa 3 model that qualifies for this, has the heated steering wheel? eg has anyone purchased one very recently? I had heard that the new models from their new chinese factory now have this feature, but not sure if it is available on all versions of the model 3. That is a nice luxury feature to have.

… which our 2013 mid-spec Leaf has, along with a heat pump heater.

As much as the Leaf is derided (and, for many things to do with that damn battery, it can be deserved), the first model also came with generous features that are often non-standard on flasher current EVs and for which one must pay extra such as a heat pump heater. (Don’t know much about the current model’s specs.)

My son, who comes with me when I test drive various cars, is ever-disappointed that so few cars have heated rear seats!

They were pretty pricey back them though, so they may have added luxury features to help justify the price.

Technofreak

6656 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3474

Trusted

#2736315 29-Jun-2021 14:06

kingdragonfly: I'm going to stretch electric vehicle, toi electric planes, for the moment.

I'd like to see electric planes in New Zealand. Not because it's greener, but it would likely mean more direct short haul plane trips, such as Tauranga to New Plymouth or Palmerston North to Nelson

Why Electric Planes are Inevitably Coming

A very superficial look at the costs. Fuel and maintenance costs will be a lot more than suggested. Battery life is going to be a major issue. Battery degradation in a car just means more frequent fills, battery degradation in an aircraft means not being able to get to the destination. There will be very stringent testing requirements about capacity, this will cost money. The costs of maintaining and overhauling airframe components will still be there.

Cost of ownership will be vastly greater than double the current costs. The Cessna's will be at residual value. They are 40 years old. The new aircraft will have a significantly higher capital cost.

That item conveniently omits to mention that Cape Air are taking delivery of brand new gasoline powered aircraft with plans of having up to 100 new piston aircraft. https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/cape-air-100-tecnam-p2012/

Sony Xperia XA2 running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6
Dell Inspiron 14z i5

frankv

5705 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3666

Lifetime subscriber

#2736344 29-Jun-2021 15:26

Technofreak:

A very superficial look at the costs. Fuel and maintenance costs will be a lot more than suggested. Battery life is going to be a major issue. Battery degradation in a car just means more frequent fills, battery degradation in an aircraft means not being able to get to the destination. There will be very stringent testing requirements about capacity, this will cost money. The costs of maintaining and overhauling airframe components will still be there.

Cost of ownership will be vastly greater than double the current costs. The Cessna's will be at residual value. They are 40 years old. The new aircraft will have a significantly higher capital cost.

Well-maintained aircraft retain their value. After all, they're still usable when they are 40 years old.

For comparison, the Pipistrel Electro that's in NZ was being charged out (pun intended) at $75 for a flight (of about 30-40 minutes IIRC), which is comparable to other microlights for hire. (They did charge another $75 for the instructor, which is unusual). Ballpark, in a gasoline powered aircraft, about a quarter of your costs are fuel, and a quarter are engine depreciation, adding up to say $70/hr for a Rotax 912, which has a lifetime of 2,000 hours. Lithium batteries last 300-800 cycles (maybe more for liquid-cooled), which is perhaps 500 hours for the Electro.

And, yes, certified aircraft batteries will cost much more than regular batteries. Fortunately, it's not going to be possible to certify aircraft-grade electricity.

Batman

Mad Scientist
30012 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 6217

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2736354 29-Jun-2021 15:51

Scott3:

Batman: Was browsing some cars at the car yards... The ones eligible for the import rebate are about 3k dearer than those that aren't. The guy swears he didn't alter the price... And not negotiable either lol.

To be fair a lot of well priced used (but unregistered) EV's got snapped up in the couple of days after the announcement, leaving the less attractively priced stuff on the market.

as I browse more this trend is the same online.

called one of the dealers he said he had to discount the preregistered car by 3k.

Technofreak

6656 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3474

Trusted

#2736396 29-Jun-2021 17:39

frankv:

Well-maintained aircraft retain their value. After all, they're still usable when they are 40 years old.

For comparison, the Pipistrel Electro that's in NZ was being charged out (pun intended) at $75 for a flight (of about 30-40 minutes IIRC), which is comparable to other microlights for hire. (They did charge another $75 for the instructor, which is unusual). Ballpark, in a gasoline powered aircraft, about a quarter of your costs are fuel, and a quarter are engine depreciation, adding up to say $70/hr for a Rotax 912, which has a lifetime of 2,000 hours. Lithium batteries last 300-800 cycles (maybe more for liquid-cooled), which is perhaps 500 hours for the Electro.

And, yes, certified aircraft batteries will cost much more than regular batteries. Fortunately, it's not going to be possible to certify aircraft-grade electricity.

I've owned and operated aircraft for about 40 years. I do know the costs involved.

You'll get very little argument from me about how well an aircraft can maintain it's value. It's that value against the replacement cost for a new aircraft is what I was getting at. A 40 year old 402 will cost about $300,000USD plus or minus, a new Tecnam P 2012 $2.6 million USD, nearly 9 times the capital cost. I expect any equivalent EV aircraft to cost as much if not more. The capital costs figure in that video are way out of line.

Also battery life will be an issue. Compared to an EV car the battery life in an EV aircraft being used for IFR flight (as in the video) is much more limiting. In the likes of the Pipstrel endurance isn't as much of an issue and a battery that has an hours endurance, even a bit less will cut the mustard.

For IFR flight the legal endurance requirements are fuel (energy) for the taxi to the take off point, to fly to your destination (A to B) plus 10%, then to an alternate airfield ( B to C) if there is one required, plus 45 minutes. An alternate destination will be a requirement on many flights and sometimes this can be further than the original A to B flight.

For arguments sake the A to B time is 60 minutes and the B to C flight could be up to 60 minutes. You need a minimum of 171 minutes (2 hours 51 minutes) of battery energy plus taxi time at the start of the flight. Lets say the battery is good for 3 hours when it is new. With a 10% degradation it will no longer be suitable.

At that time it will need to be replaced even though on the face of it, it will still have plenty of useful life left. The cost of electricity may be cheap but the cost of batteries will more than make up for that.

That as someone else said, that video is a wet dream.

Sony Xperia XA2 running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6
Dell Inspiron 14z i5

frankv

5705 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3666

Lifetime subscriber

#2736469 29-Jun-2021 22:16

Yeah, that Pipistrel is also very pricey for a 2-seat aircraft. If it wasn't electric, nobody would even consider it with a 1 hour range. The fact that they had to trailer it from Rangiora to Paraparaumu underscores its lack of utility for actually going somewhere. It's about a hundred years out of date with respect to range.

Samsung

Shop now on Samsung phones, tablets, TVs and more (affiliate link).

Technofreak

6656 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3474

Trusted

#2736657 30-Jun-2021 12:20

frankv: Yeah, that Pipistrel is also very pricey for a 2-seat aircraft. If it wasn't electric, nobody would even consider it with a 1 hour range. The fact that they had to trailer it from Rangiora to Paraparaumu underscores its lack of utility for actually going somewhere. It's about a hundred years out of date with respect to range.

IIRC the Pipstrel has about a 1 hour endurance. That's quite OK for a local 30 minute training flight, but when you want to go somewhere and comply with the 30 minute reserve it means hops of about 50 nm (~ 95 km) in other words it's pretty useless.

Sony Xperia XA2 running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6
Dell Inspiron 14z i5

tripper1000

1648 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1176

#2736673 30-Jun-2021 13:34

"Pretty useless" depends on your requirements. They don't build one-size-fits-all aircraft, so statistically speaking the majority of aircraft models will be "pretty useless" for a given job.

As I recall, the Electric Pipstrel is not intended for a transport role - it is aimed squarely at flight training schools in or near urban areas where the noise of ICE is an issue.

Technofreak

6656 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3474

Trusted

#2736709 30-Jun-2021 15:01

tripper1000:
"Pretty useless" depends on your requirements. They don't build one-size-fits-all aircraft, so statistically speaking the majority of aircraft models will be "pretty useless" for a given job.

As I recall, the Electric Pipstrel is not intended for a transport role - it is aimed squarely at flight training schools in or near urban areas where the noise of ICE is an issue.

Given any aircraft currently used by a school fot flight training generally has an endurance of 3 to 4 hours and thus can be used in multiple scenarios an EV aircraft like the Pipstrel is comparatively useless. The flying school will still need ICE aircraft to complete the parts of the training syllabus where the flight is more than 30 minutes e.g cross country navigation.

Granted there's always limitations with new technology and you have to start somewhere, however I don't see a future with BEV aircraft.

Sony Xperia XA2 running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6
Dell Inspiron 14z i5

SaltyNZ

8865 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 9540

Trusted

2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#2736718 30-Jun-2021 15:13

Technofreak: however I don't see a future with BEV aircraft.

I think LH2 is a more likely bet for all but the smallest aircraft. You burn off a significant chunk of fuel for take-off and climb and you don't expect to be landing with three quarters of a tank still sloshing around, so boil-off is manageable in the context of only needing to be contained on the order of hours in a less-well-insulated tank. In a ground-crew setting, fueling will be performed by trained technicians so the dangers of handling cryogenic fluids are also under control.

It'll never be useful for mass market vehicles - the idiot factor is far too high - so I believe cars will be BEVs forever barring some fundamental scientific breakthrough. But for aircraft, hydrogen seems much more doable.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

frankv

5705 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3666

Lifetime subscriber

#2736730 30-Jun-2021 15:37

tripper1000:

As I recall, the Electric Pipstrel is not intended for a transport role - it is aimed squarely at flight training schools in or near urban areas where the noise of ICE is an issue.

Yeah, that was my point... that it is very expensive as a trainer. If it wasn't electric, it wouldn't sell at all. Electric has yet to reach the point where it's equally cost-effective with ICE aircraft, so it has to go to a niche where ICE can't compete.

Technofreak: Granted there's always limitations with new technology and you have to start somewhere, however I don't see a future with BEV aircraft.

I'm the opposite. Except in its niche, the Pipistrel is somewhat worse than an ICE aircraft (depending on how you weigh up price vs range vs known technology vs fewer moving parts). But, when a new battery technology arrives that gives twice the range, that battery can be retrofitted with no airframe changes (assuming weight is similar and it is packaged similarly). That's quite different from ICE, where getting more range (e.g. adding long range tanks) is a major build involving weight & balance, structures, pumps, etc. Admittedly, it will still be expensive. But I foresee that when they're looking at changing the Pipistrel's expired battery, they would perhaps consider swapping to a newer technology battery for more range.

And battery technologies are on the steep up-slope of the J-curve, whereas ICE is very much at the terminal plateau. So there's no reason to believe that battery packs with twice the range won't be available in the foreseeable future. OTOH, there's no reason to expect much improvement in ICE.

New World

Shop on-line at New World now for your groceries (affiliate link).

Technofreak

6656 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3474

Trusted

#2736954 30-Jun-2021 16:55

Unlike a BEV car, battery weight is the enemy for a BEV aircraft.

The energy density of the battery is the biggest problem that I see. Battery energy is currently about 100 times less dense than fossil fuels. Admittedly the thermodynamic inefficiencies of an ICE work in the favour of a BEV but there is still a huge energy density advantage to an ICE. It's going to to take some big improvements in battery technology to change that.

One other problem is with an ICE aircraft you can trade range for payload by reducing the amount of fuel on board but with a BEV aircraft the battery weighs the same full or empty.

I see fuel cells as the way forward for aircraft.

Sony Xperia XA2 running Sailfish OS. https://sailfishos.org The true independent open source mobile OS
Samsung Galaxy Tab S6
Dell Inspiron 14z i5

NorthernZone

69 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 20

#2736990 30-Jun-2021 17:39

Can we please please have a separate forum for e-planes?!!!

Yes, I understand many geeks are interested in the not-too-dissimilar tech challenges, but I'd guess many or most of us here are focussed primarily on e-cars (& trucks perhaps). The real-world here & now.

I do feel frustrated when I click through to a new posting only to find it totally irrelevant to my interests. Each to their own of course but let's split them out!

HarmLessSolutions

1228 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 810

Subscriber

#2736993 30-Jun-2021 17:47

NorthernZone:

Can we please please have a separate forum for e-planes?!!!

Yes, I understand many geeks are interested in the not-too-dissimilar tech challenges, but I'd guess many or most of us here are focussed primarily on e-cars (& trucks perhaps). The real-world here & now.

I do feel frustrated when I click through to a new posting only to find it totally irrelevant to my interests. Each to their own of course but let's split them out!

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

jarledb

Webhead
3319 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1983

Moderator

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2737023 30-Jun-2021 18:53

Please create a new thread if you want to continue discussing electric planes (or anything else off-topic to this thread about EVs).

I will delete any future posts about electric planes in this thread.

Jarle Dahl Bergersen | Referral Links: Want $50 off when you join Octopus Energy? Use this referral code
Are you happy with what you get from Geekzone? Please consider supporting us by making a donation or subscribing.

1 | ... | 337 | 338 | 339 | 340 | 341 | 342 | 343 | 344 | 345 | 346 | 347 | ... | 771