Nissan LEAF - General

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#1839624 5-Aug-2017 21:18

Linuxluver:

The 2018 Nissan LEAF is supposed to have at least a 40kWh battery....so the range of that should be at least 200km uphill into the wind and more usually 250km-300km for city driving.

I suspect that within 5 years the base model EVs will have 60kWh batteries and there will be many larger battery options. This would mean that a cheaper car would comfortably get over 300km on a full charge and on a 350-400km trip would only need 1 stop which would only need to be long enough to order a coffee, wait for that coffee and then drink it - by that time the car would have gained enough extra battery power that there would be no fear of not making the destination. Longer trips would require more/longer stops, but when driving longer distances it is probably advisable for the human's benefit to have some decent stops anyway.

Imagine the range on standard EVs in 2030! We will end up with Auckland to Wellington only needing 1 longer stop or a couple of quicker stops.

The EV is coming on and it will really start picking up the pace as new models enter the market over the next few years. We are going to see EVs many times every day all over NZ. Just yesterday I saw a couple of EVs in Cambridge - one 2015 Leaf and then a Tesla (Number plate T3SLA, I think).

As the number of EVs passes 10,000 and then 20,000 we will be seeing many more charging points added. Just about every town will get some fast chargers. It will get to the point that every fast food place and supermarket will want charging points in their carparks. Cafes will want charging points on the street near them. Malls will add charging points in their carparks. Businesses will realise that a person with 15-20 minutes to kill while waiting for their car to charge - well, that is definitely a potential customer of a nearby business! If 4 EV owners are charging in a McDonalds carpark then the odds are that 3 of them will grab a burger while they wait, why wouldn't a McDs want a charging point there?

Right now it is all in its infancy, I'm gonna grab some popcorn and watch it all go wild over the next 5 years! This is gonna be one hell of a ride.

frednz

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#1839648 5-Aug-2017 22:49

Linuxluver:

You can get some good bargains this way, but there are also risks. It is possible, as @RUKI has mentioned, to 'fiddle' the battery stats and make the car look a lot better than it is. You won't find out this has been done until you've been driving it for a few days or weeks and find out the range you're actually getting isn't the range you'd expect....and the car will gradually reset itself to what it can actually do. In one case that's come up in the past few days a woman bought an "11 bar LEAF" (so battery 78% to 84%) in a private sale. After a week of driving the car dropped a bunch of bars and it now a 8 bar LEAF.....with about 60% capacity. That's a range of about 70km. Not what she paid for. The vendor is now not answering the phone.

It's best to buy a car from a major importer (AutoLink, GVI, EV Central, Volt Vehicles, PlugnDriveMan, to ame just a few) just so you know they are able to give you another car entirely if THEY got caught out, though they tend to buy only from trusted sources.

Separately, a LEAF with low kms is actually a BAD thing. The Li-ION batteries are in best condition if used frequently. A car with a low kms that's 2-3 years old has been sitting around in some unknown state (Low charge? High charge? Inside? Outside?) that may not have been good for the battery.

Unlike cars with the 'splodey petrol engines, an EV is best when used several times / week and has a moderate amount of kms on it (5000 / year at least?). This way, you know the battery has been used and will be "happier'. The motor itself has no explosions in it like in a petrol or diesel engine.....and wear and tear is minimal. It's a magnetic field turning a shaft. The motor will outlast the car.

All I can say to the above is roll on the day when brand NZ new Nissan Leafs with proper NZ support are available at a price no greater than $40,000! Reading here and also on Facebook about all the problems that can arise when buying second-hand EVs sure is enough to make me wait until NZ new is available at a reasonable price. Well, I might go to $50,000 for NZ new, but that currently doesn't get me in the door! Perhaps one of the political parties will offer decent subsidies for NZ new buyers?

dolsen

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#1839649 5-Aug-2017 22:49

Linuxluver:

Separately, a LEAF with low kms is actually a BAD thing. The Li-ION batteries are in best condition if used frequently. A car with a low kms that's 2-3 years old has been sitting around in some unknown state (Low charge? High charge? Inside? Outside?) that may not have been good for the battery.

Something I hadn't actually considered, however, makes sense.

So, there's a bit more risk involved going that way. If I was in the market for a leaf, when there is a 2016 30x with 5000Km that went for 895000 yen (18.2K + $250ish rego), I'd probably take the risk.

Edit - I've just looked at the auction sheet for that car and it was a 24x, not a 30x that the auction heading said it was, so not quite the bargain after all.

Linuxluver

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#1839655 5-Aug-2017 23:15

dolsen:

Linuxluver:

Separately, a LEAF with low kms is actually a BAD thing. The Li-ION batteries are in best condition if used frequently. A car with a low kms that's 2-3 years old has been sitting around in some unknown state (Low charge? High charge? Inside? Outside?) that may not have been good for the battery.

Something I hadn't actually considered, however, makes sense.

So, there's a bit more risk involved going that way. If I was in the market for a leaf, when there is a 2016 30x with 5000Km that went for 895000 yen (18.2K + $250ish rego), I'd probably take the risk.

Edit - I've just looked at the auction sheet for that car and it was a 24x, not a 30x that the auction heading said it was, so not quite the bargain after all.

....and that's fine. :-)

I have no problem with anyone looking to import direct and get a bargain....and maybe even sell it on for a mark-up. My only concern is that anyone thinking about it be aware of the risks and be able to make informed decisions.

"Risk" is the wrong word when in deep waters and not able to swim..... :-)

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MarkH67

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#1840017 6-Aug-2017 17:11

Today I went up to Auckland and had a look in GVI, they had a dark red 2015 Leaf (Gen 2 X model) with 7,500kms on the clock.

Next Saturday I'll go back up to pick it up, my first modern* car WOOHOO!

This one: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1386190880.htm

I got them down to $21k which is only $1k more than what I'd be planning on spending, really nice tidy car.

* My definition of old fashion car is one that burns fossil fuels, modern cars are ones powered by batteries.

Linuxluver

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#1840019 6-Aug-2017 17:19

MarkH67:

Today I went up to Auckland and had a look in GVI, they had a dark red 2015 Leaf (Gen 2 X model) with 7,500kms on the clock.

Next Saturday I'll go back up to pick it up, my first modern* car WOOHOO!

This one: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1386190880.htm

I got them down to $21k which is only $1k more than what I'd be planning on spending, really nice tidy car.

* My definition of old fashion car is one that burns fossil fuels, modern cars are ones powered by batteries.

Great! :-)

I live near GVI. I'm about 2km further north up Great South Road. They are a great place to get the NV-200 vans. Those are becoming popular with supermarkets and others who need smaller vans for deliveries.

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dejadeadnz

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#1840074 6-Aug-2017 17:53

frednz:

All I can say to the above is roll on the day when brand NZ new Nissan Leafs with proper NZ support are available at a price no greater than $40,000! Reading here and also on Facebook about all the problems that can arise when buying second-hand EVs sure is enough to make me wait until NZ new is available at a reasonable price. Well, I might go to $50,000 for NZ new, but that currently doesn't get me in the door! Perhaps one of the political parties will offer decent subsidies for NZ new buyers?

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I like the technology and have enjoyed driving my work's EVs but I can't take seriously some of the breathless excitement being expressed by people over buying from some random dealer of 2nd hand vehicles whose current entity have only been around for a few years. I looked at GVI's website and, for example, it's almost impossible to get any concrete information on the extent/coverage of their warranties. More importantly, looking at the Trademe ad that MarkH67 was excitedly mentioning, all I saw were reasons to be alarmed. For example, this is what the ad had to say for warranty:

Exclusive EV Battery / Mechanical Warranty Cover 12, 24 and 36 Months with Roadside Assistance

Sorry but on this planet and in light of our CGA, I wish the best of luck to any dealer who tries to claim that an EV, which is relatively high-priced as an upfront, capital investment, should only last for 12 months (depending on what warranty option that you buy). This especially since EVs are meant to suffer from less wear and tear. Yeah sure they didn't say that your CGA rights don't apply (because that would be illegal) but I wouldn't have any confidence in an entity's willingness to observe the CGA when they offer warranty options like this. Until I get to deal with the actual manufacturers directly or at least more established, reputable dealers, I am not willing to take a punt yet. Car manufacturers/dealers are, as a rule, far too sociopathic to risk too much upon.

Linuxluver

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#1840137 6-Aug-2017 19:17

dejadeadnz:

frednz:

All I can say to the above is roll on the day when brand NZ new Nissan Leafs with proper NZ support are available at a price no greater than $40,000! Reading here and also on Facebook about all the problems that can arise when buying second-hand EVs sure is enough to make me wait until NZ new is available at a reasonable price. Well, I might go to $50,000 for NZ new, but that currently doesn't get me in the door! Perhaps one of the political parties will offer decent subsidies for NZ new buyers?

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I like the technology and have enjoyed driving my work's EVs but I can't take seriously some of the breathless excitement being expressed by people over buying from some random dealer of 2nd hand vehicles whose current entity have only been around for a few years. I looked at GVI's website and, for example, it's almost impossible to get any concrete information on the extent/coverage of their warranties. More importantly, looking at the Trademe ad that MarkH67 was excitedly mentioning, all I saw were reasons to be alarmed. For example, this is what the ad had to say for warranty:

Exclusive EV Battery / Mechanical Warranty Cover 12, 24 and 36 Months with Roadside Assistance

Sorry but on this planet and in light of our CGA, I wish the best of luck to any dealer who tries to claim that an EV, which is relatively high-priced as an upfront, capital investment, should only last for 12 months (depending on what warranty option that you buy). This especially since EVs are meant to suffer from less wear and tear. Yeah sure they didn't say that your CGA rights don't apply (because that would be illegal) but I wouldn't have any confidence in an entity's willingness to observe the CGA when they offer warranty options like this. Until I get to deal with the actual manufacturers directly or at least more established, reputable dealers, I am not willing to take a punt yet. Car manufacturers/dealers are, as a rule, far too sociopathic to risk too much upon.

Perfectly understandable. It certainly is a leap of faith.

What makes it possible - at least for the Nissan LEAF - is that mechanically it's probably one of the most reliable cars ever built.

Absolutely, for a normal petrol car with thousands of moving parts and an engine containing thousands of explosions per minute......you need service backup.

The LEAF has none of those......and so the relative lack of a warranty and free servicing (servicing is available for a price from Nissan and others of you need it) isn't really a big issue.

I know it's hard to go from one paradigm to another.......old assumptions that don't apply still work strongly on the mind.

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PhantomNVD

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#1840140 6-Aug-2017 19:21

As a new owner of a leaf... what servicing IS recommended/required for a 6year old leaf that working wonderfully well straight from the dealer?

jfanning

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#1840169 6-Aug-2017 19:41

Linuxluver:

The only temperature you need to worry about is the battery temperature. The performance of the car is the same under pretty much any conditions in the normal range (-20C to +40C), but the range it can roll will vary as the temperature affects the charge in the battery.

So there is no range drop when the temperate (the weather, not the batteries) is low, say 6C or below?

Linuxluver

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#1840203 6-Aug-2017 19:57

PhantomNVD: As a new owner of a leaf... what servicing IS recommended/required for a 6year old leaf that working wonderfully well straight from the dealer?

Manakau Nissan have a service program / offering. I can email you a scanned copy of the one they did for me. I Paid $99, but I think the usual price is $160.

Bluecars in (Avondale) Auckland also do LEAF servicing. They have a LEAF rental business and service their own cars. They are also the people who can re-build a LEAF battery pack if you need it. Gazeley's, in Wellington, do LEAF servicing. There will be others.

On a practical level, for regular maintenance you keep the tyres fresh (best to have ones with low rolling resistance to maximise range) and get the wheels / suspension / brakes checked. Pretty much any mechanic can do this work. The LEAF is a normal car as far as those aspects are concerned.

The 12V battery needs to be replaced every few years...and it has to be the right battery as it is kept charged by the car via the main traction battery. I'm told you can't just put any 12v car battery in their. It has to be a specific type of deep-cycle battery. Nissan will have them.

Beyond that, you're into the realm of fixing things if they break. The LED lights on my LEAF should outlast the car. The heatpump could fail at some point.

The oldest LEAF is barely more than 6 years old. In most ways that matter they are still 'new' cars.

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Linuxluver

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#1840208 6-Aug-2017 20:07

jfanning:

Linuxluver:

The only temperature you need to worry about is the battery temperature. The performance of the car is the same under pretty much any conditions in the normal range (-20C to +40C), but the range it can roll will vary as the temperature affects the charge in the battery.

So there is no range drop when the temperate (the weather, not the batteries) is low, say 6C or below?

There shouldn't be.

Maybe colder air is more dense.....so greater wind resistance?

Absolutely the range will be less if you live in Ranfurly and go out and jump into your LEAF on a -5C morning and the battery is 0C. But a warm battery (25C) should take the car just as far in July as it would in January.

I can see the effect of cooler tempartures on my battery SoH (state of health) as measured by LeafSpy. My 12C battery full charged cold-when-charged battery will have 77amp-hours and an SoH of maybe 97%. Whereas a warm-when-charged battery will have 79-80 amp-hours and an SoH of 100%.

I've proven this to myself recently. My SoH had dropped to 96%. The battery was cold around 12C. I went for a long drive and got it up around 19C....and then fast-charged it to 80%....and it was 25C....and then I plugged it in at home and topped off the warm battery...and my SoH went back to 100%.

Eventually it will degrade.....time and tide....but so far I'm not seeing it other than variations due to colder weather...and they can be mitigated by keeping the car warm. In many ways, the LEAF is a colder-weather car by design. The battery reluctantly gives heat away. That's awesome when it;s cold outside....but can be a pain when it's hot outside as repeated fast charging warms the battery....and it will cool slowly on a warm summer day....and not at all if you're driving at 100kph or more.

Tesla cars can actively manage battery temperature. You can set them to pre-warm the battery when charging......to maximise range. They will also cool it to reduce wear and tear and maximise range. It's one of the things you're getting for the $100K+ price you pay.

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paulchinnz

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#1840226 6-Aug-2017 20:21

@Linuxluver you've hit nail on head for the 15% drop in range I've noticed over winter in Chch. My 10km trips to work aren't long enough to warm up the battery much.

Anyway, in contrast to the 7km/kWh over last 2 months, this weekend with temperatures in the teens, my economy at 8.5 km/kWh over 40km of driving.

Linuxluver

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#1840240 6-Aug-2017 20:41

paulchinnz:

@Linuxluver you've hit nail on head for the 15% drop in range I've noticed over winter in Chch. My 10km trips to work aren't long enough to warm up the battery much.

Anyway, in contrast to the 7km/kWh over last 2 months, this weekend with temperatures in the teens, my economy at 8.5 km/kWh over 40km of driving.

Thanks.

8.5km/kWh is pretty good. :-)

You must be able to do about 80kph or less for most of the drive.

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paulchinnz

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#1840245 6-Aug-2017 20:50

Linuxluver:

paulchinnz:

@Linuxluver you've hit nail on head for the 15% drop in range I've noticed over winter in Chch. My 10km trips to work aren't long enough to warm up the battery much.

Anyway, in contrast to the 7km/kWh over last 2 months, this weekend with temperatures in the teens, my economy at 8.5 km/kWh over 40km of driving.

Thanks.

8.5km/kWh is pretty good. :-)

You must be able to do about 80kph or less for most of the drive.

Yeah just about town ... between the road cone zones and the central city 30km/h limit, I'd easily average half that! (my Ulysses Speedo reckons I average 30 km/h since Jan 2016).

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