EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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Ultimate Geek
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#1883908 15-Oct-2017 18:49

Linuxluver:

Solid state batteries look promising. They never degrade.

I think it is easy to underestimate what an advance this is. If we suppose that a 2022 car with solid state batteries is likely to have more than 400km range (maybe quite a lot more) then consider that in 2032 you could buy a 10 year old EV that STILL has over 400km range!

Achieving 100% of new car sales being EVs will be great once it happens, but that is still a LONG way from 100% (or even 90%) of cars on the road being EVs. Being able to buy a 10 year old EV with a great range would enable the percentage of EVs on the road to climb considerably.

If you consider the environmental cost to manufacture and transport new cars, those cars being able to be driven for 25+ years brings down the average per annum environmental impact of manufacturing those cars by a lot.

MarkH67

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Ultimate Geek
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#1884347 16-Oct-2017 13:45

EVs are in a tiny minority, but it's all changing now.

http://www.driven.co.nz/news/news/electric-dreams-the-year-the-motor-car-died/

Seems about right, especially the push from China making everyone else change too.

tripper1000

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#1884348 16-Oct-2017 13:50

Where are you guys reading that these Toyota Lithium solid state batteries don't degrade? I'm only seeing that they're theoretically more compact and more safe.

MarkH67

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Ultimate Geek
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#1884356 16-Oct-2017 14:02

tripper1000:

Where are you guys reading that these Toyota Lithium solid state batteries don't degrade? I'm only seeing that they're theoretically more compact and more safe.

Degradation is due to the liquid electrolyte.

Here's a good read: https://www.computerworld.com/article/2973483/sustainable-it/samsung-mit-say-their-solid-state-batteries-could-last-a-lifetime.html

That's the tech we want in cars IMO.

PhantomNVD

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#1885367 17-Oct-2017 23:52

And here’s the tech we want FOR the cars too:
https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/02/electric-car-battery-savings-nissan-leaf-ovo

Another transformational change EVs may bring in is the decrease in ‘peak power production’ currently provided by polluting coal and nuclear power plants... reducing the need to build new ones (as electric use continues to rise) and even (potentially) negating the need for those already in use....

tripper1000

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#1885567 18-Oct-2017 11:06

That technology where an EV is used as a power-wall is quite relevant overseas but not so much in N.Z. Because most of our generation is already renewable (~70%) and because most of the per KW cost of our electricity is levies, not generation, the opportunities here are not very lucrative.

I would like to see the levies for expansion of the grid changed and removed from off-peak electricity - after all the need to upgrade the grid is due to peak consumption, not off-peak consumption. By targeting the levies this way it encourages people/companies to move their consumption off peak, contributing to a reduction in the original problem and making the EV-power-wall technology as linked above viable here.

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Linuxluver

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#1885583 18-Oct-2017 11:38

tripper1000:

That technology where an EV is used as a power-wall is quite relevant overseas but not so much in N.Z. Because most of our generation is already renewable (~70%) and because most of the per KW cost of our electricity is levies, not generation, the opportunities here are not very lucrative.

I would like to see the levies for expansion of the grid changed and removed from off-peak electricity - after all the need to upgrade the grid is due to peak consumption, not off-peak consumption. By targeting the levies this way it encourages people/companies to move their consumption off peak, contributing to a reduction in the original problem and making the EV-power-wall technology as linked above viable here.

The bigger picture is off-peak has social implications. People working odd hours so their employer can take advantage of lower power prices......so crime goes up because kids are at home alone more or whatever.

Any change we make around hours and times of work should have some kind of "social impact" analysis done to it. Work life is people's lives...and their family's life collectively.

At least until the robot apocalypse and none of us have to work anymore. Then no worries.

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MikeAqua

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#1885616 18-Oct-2017 12:08

Linuxluver:

tripper1000:

That technology where an EV is used as a power-wall is quite relevant overseas but not so much in N.Z. Because most of our generation is already renewable (~70%) and because most of the per KW cost of our electricity is levies, not generation, the opportunities here are not very lucrative.

I would like to see the levies for expansion of the grid changed and removed from off-peak electricity - after all the need to upgrade the grid is due to peak consumption, not off-peak consumption. By targeting the levies this way it encourages people/companies to move their consumption off peak, contributing to a reduction in the original problem and making the EV-power-wall technology as linked above viable here.

The bigger picture is off-peak has social implications. People working odd hours so their employer can take advantage of lower power prices......so crime goes up because kids are at home alone more or whatever.

Generally employers are requiring odd-hours so they can get multiple shifts per day e.g. a factory I worked at had a day-shift, night-shift and a graveyard-shift. If we had moved production to off-peak, we wouldn't have had enough people.

The operational costs and difficulties of running a night-shift are high. I don't think you would bother just to get cheaper electricity, and for a serious user you can negotiate a pricing schedule that suits your business or, depending on your business use another source of energy - especially if you need heat.

Mike

tripper1000

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#1885790 18-Oct-2017 16:30

Of course, shifting electricity consumption isn't viable for all businesses, but it is for some.

Of course slightly cheaper prices are not going to encourage businesses to re-time consumption - that's exactly my point - the fact that off peak usage is subsidising on peak usage (via un-targeted communist levies instead of precision user-pays levies) is exactly what is going to kill the EV-powerwall buy-off-peak, sell-on-peak concept in New Zealand.

If there is more truth in the prices of off and on peak electricity, the difference will be much greater and the potential savings will drive some companies to get creative and exploit the savings.

Linuxluver

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#1885922 18-Oct-2017 19:36

tripper1000:

Of course, shifting electricity consumption isn't viable for all businesses, but it is for some.

Of course slightly cheaper prices are not going to encourage businesses to re-time consumption - that's exactly my point - the fact that off peak usage is subsidising on peak usage (via un-targeted communist levies instead of precision user-pays levies) is exactly what is going to kill the EV-powerwall buy-off-peak, sell-on-peak concept in New Zealand.

If there is more truth in the prices of off and on peak electricity, the difference will be much greater and the potential savings will drive some companies to get creative and exploit the savings.

I'm a fan of keeping it simple.

One price everywhere for power at any time of the day or night and set so it is profitable enough to invest in more generation as required.

Add to that a requirement for all homes to generate and store 20kWh / day each - including apartments - and you'll find you don't actually need much of the existing generation capacity.

These complex pricing models for everything - power, water, roads, whatever - just waste an enormous amount of time on bureaucracy both personal and organisational and for what? Just because? I have better things to do.....and I know from experience all this raw of tooth and claw market forces "targeting" is a huge waste of time and a barrier to just doing the business you want to do.......instead of also having to manage all these inputs and infrastructure as well.....to be more "efficient". It's fiction that so many extra layers of added requirement results in efficiency. Maybe though each myopic keyhole of concern......but in the big picture? No way. You have to employ several extra people just to analyse and cope with the added complexity.

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tripper1000

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#1886142 19-Oct-2017 11:00

Linuxluver:
I'm a fan of keeping it simple.

One price everywhere for power at any time of the day or night and set so it is profitable enough to invest in more generation as required.

Why shouldn't you be rewarded for charging your EV off-peak and not contributing to overloaded infrastructure? Why should sensible you subsidise careless Joe who is charging theirs on peak and contributing to C02 in the sky and overloaded power lines on the ground?

A parallel to your argument is saying that EV's (and petrol) should be charged the same RUC's as diesel to keep everything simple. We want to encourage people for whom it is practical to switch to EV to do so.

I'm not a fan of un-necessary complexity either, but we already have night and day retail plans, it is just that the split/advantage has narrowed over the years due to blunt levies. I am a fan of using carrots to encourage desirable behaviour, rather than the present situation which is a stick on the back of both the people who your want to encourage and who you want to discourage.

Australia has a much greater range of retail power plans, giving consumers more choice and encouraging thoughtful timing of power consumption. Govt policy in N.Z. dictates that we have a limited range of retail plans, causing overly simple power rates and limited consumer choice. I think this not only insults the intelligence of the public, but it doesn't offer carrots to relieve peak loading issues, and thereby exacerbates the problem.

As smart people who are either more environmentally motivated or more technically minded, the people in this forum stand to gain the most.

It is that same as carbon or sulphur taxes - where they are applied only to emitters they discourage emissions, where they are applied to emitters and non-emitters alike they do little to curb the problem.

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MikeAqua

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#1886167 19-Oct-2017 11:18

tripper1000:

A parallel to your argument is saying that EV's (and petrol) should be charged the same RUC's as diesel to keep everything simple. We want to encourage people for whom it is practical to switch to EV to do so.

Regarding off peak pricing, I think it's a tool we should make more use of to reduce our reliance on standby generation and to reduce the need for network capacity investment in the short to medium term, because in the long term with on-site generation technologies we may find we have too much network capacity.

Mike

Jeeves

301 posts

Ultimate Geek
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#1886172 19-Oct-2017 11:27

Linuxluver:

tripper1000:

Of course, shifting electricity consumption isn't viable for all businesses, but it is for some.

Of course slightly cheaper prices are not going to encourage businesses to re-time consumption - that's exactly my point - the fact that off peak usage is subsidising on peak usage (via un-targeted communist levies instead of precision user-pays levies) is exactly what is going to kill the EV-powerwall buy-off-peak, sell-on-peak concept in New Zealand.

If there is more truth in the prices of off and on peak electricity, the difference will be much greater and the potential savings will drive some companies to get creative and exploit the savings.

I'm a fan of keeping it simple.

One price everywhere for power at any time of the day or night and set so it is profitable enough to invest in more generation as required.

Add to that a requirement for all homes to generate and store 20kWh / day each - including apartments - and you'll find you don't actually need much of the existing generation capacity.

These complex pricing models for everything - power, water, roads, whatever - just waste an enormous amount of time on bureaucracy both personal and organisational and for what? Just because? I have better things to do.....and I know from experience all this raw of tooth and claw market forces "targeting" is a huge waste of time and a barrier to just doing the business you want to do.......instead of also having to manage all these inputs and infrastructure as well.....to be more "efficient". It's fiction that so many extra layers of added requirement results in efficiency. Maybe though each myopic keyhole of concern......but in the big picture? No way. You have to employ several extra people just to analyse and cope with the added complexity.

You're kidding yourself if you think a national grid can supply power to all corners of the country for the same price. Sure, it could. But they would have to set a ridiculously high price to compensate. The poor folk in the South Island who are only a few kiolmeters from multiple hydro dams, will be subsidising the millions of north islanders who use more electricity, and use more infrastructure to get it there. Not too sure that will help the Southerns attitude towards Aucklanders very much :)

MikeAqua

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#1886184 19-Oct-2017 11:42

Linuxluver:

Add to that a requirement for all homes to generate and store 20kWh / day each - including apartments - and you'll find you don't actually need much of the existing generation capacity.

Where would I store 20kWh in my 28m2 apartment? That's ~1,650 AH in 12v batteries. Not a small installation.

I like my apartments small - efficient, affordable and easy care. But ... I have made complete use of all the available space. I don't have any place at all for a battery bank. Then there is the cost of retro-fitting.

I'm not sure where it would go in the building either. We would collectively need >5,000kWh of storage capacity.

Perhaps you meant to say all new homes?

Even then - at what cost and do we want to add to the capital cost of building homes right now?

Mike

robjg63

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#1886252 19-Oct-2017 13:27

Not exactly news - but I was in Hong Kong last weekend and was amazed by the number of Tesla cars I saw. Just couldnt believe how many there were.

Obviously there are a lot of rich people in Hong Kong and lots of 'exotic' vehicles in general, but I regularly saw Tesla cars parked next to each other (they were just that common and on a couple of occasions when standing at an intersection I could count 3 Teslas within easy view.

I dont know how many cars a month Tesla are selling at the moment but in March this year it was just under 3000 for the month. The next month it was zero cars. This is because a rather generous electric vehicle subsidy finished at the end of March. Must have been generous becuase it apparently doubled the cost of a Tesla when they removed the subsidy. I read an article saying that Teslas were lots cheaperthan Mercedes and Audis for example when the subsidy was available.

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