EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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101 posts

Master Geek
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#3309512 16-Nov-2024 08:06

deepred:
Probably cost parity, like digital cameras vs film cameras c.2005.

We have reached cost parity. My new Mach-E cost me the same as a base model Mazda CX-5 👍

exador

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Master Geek
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#3309515 16-Nov-2024 08:35

Picked up my car yesterday. It’s brand new, 2024 registered to me as first owner.
According to VIN number it doesn’t have the LFP battery.

I went past the Ford storage yard in South Auckland and there is still a handful of Mach-E’s left.

dafman

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#3309518 16-Nov-2024 09:11

SaltyNZ:

dafman:

I suspect sales will remain relatively subdued until the next EV breakthrough hits, eg. Longer range battery tech, quantum shift in charging times.

Not really sure what such a breakthrough would be. You can already drive an EV from the top to the bottom of the country in roughly the same time as an ICE, unless you like peeing in a bottle.

Come on, seriously. For all the pros of EVs, comparability with ICE for long distance traveling is not one:

ICE cars can drive further between fills
ICE cars take a fraction of the time to refill
ICE owners never have to queue or wait for a refill
Petrol stations outnumber EV charging stations by a quazillion to one.

The earth is not flat, and neither can EV’s yet go toe to toe with ICE for ease of long distance travelling. If they could, I would own one.

Jase2985

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#3309523 16-Nov-2024 09:28

dafman:

ICE owners never have to queue or wait for a refill

Complete BS on that one, at my local station there are 16 pumps, and regularly you have to wait for a pump, at the NPD in Manukau, which has 16 pumps, you regularly have to wait for a pump, so while the wait is not the same as it would be for an EV charging, there is still a wait.

SpartanVXL

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#3309526 16-Nov-2024 09:42

Heh Pak N Save petrol on discount day :)

On topic, solid state is supposedly the next jump in battery improvements. Will likely wait till that comes out to market.

RunningMan

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#3309530 16-Nov-2024 09:58

dafman:

Come on, seriously. For all the pros of EVs, comparability with ICE for long distance traveling is not one:

ICE cars can drive further between fills
ICE cars take a fraction of the time to refill
ICE owners never have to queue or wait for a refill
Petrol stations outnumber EV charging stations by a quazillion to one.

Respectfully, this demonstrates a lack of experience in using an EV for this purpose. The first 2 points are both 100% accurate and almost totally irrelevant at the same time. The reason is because the way an EV is used is different to the way an ICEV is used. Both are a tool to get you from A to B, but because of the way the tool works, they are operated in a different way. ICEV you wait until the last minute then refill the tank. EV you tend to put a smaller amount of charge in when an opportunity arises, so stopping for a rest or toilet break, plug the car in for 5 mins while you are stopping. If there happens to be a queue, not big deal, you don't plug in there but do the next time you stop. The days of lurching and struggling to get 80km between charges are a distant memory in clapped out old LEAFs.

The old Nokia 3310 would last for a week on charge, so you charged it once a week. But your modern smartphone won't last that long, so you plug it in or drop it on a charging pad when the opportunity arises, not wait for it to go flat then charge it to 100%. Does that mean a modern smartphone is useless for someone who needs it to work 24/7? Of course not, it just means you learn to operate it slightly differently to the dinosaur device.

The 3rd point is simply untrue. Additionally, while it can happen sometimes for an EV, it's also not that common.

The 4th point, other than clearly being an exaggeration is also untrue. Firstly, you can plug in an EV anywhere there is a power point, and people do. Haven't done the maths, but at a guess, houses outnumber petrol stations by 1000:1. There's no absolute requirement to use a public charger with an EV unlike the absolute requirement to use a public petrol station with an ICEV. However even if the simplistic view of having to use a public charger is taken, of course petrol stations outnumber EV chargers - the fleet has a significantly lower percentage of EVs, so you'd expect a lower percentage of chargers.

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dafman

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#3309532 16-Nov-2024 10:09

Jase2985:

dafman:

ICE owners never have to queue or wait for a refill

Complete BS on that one, at my local station there are 16 pumps, and regularly you have to wait for a pump, at the NPD in Manukau, which has 16 pumps, you regularly have to wait for a pump, so while the wait is not the same as it would be for an EV charging, there is still a wait.

@handsomedan. His post of 4 November on this thread. Travelling from Auckland to Napier, had to wait close to one hour at Taupo for a charger to come free, then a further 40 mins to charge.

If he had been driving an ICE, he would have experienced zero wait time, 5 mins to fill.

That’s 100 mins to juice up versus 5 mins.

jonathan18

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#3309598 16-Nov-2024 11:05

Dafman: I think the arguments you make are such a textbook case of cherry-picking snippets of annecdata, irrelevant ‘facts’ and simply incorrect information to suit your pre-determined position on EVs - this is something far more commonly seen on EV-hating threads on FB than here on GZ!

As an example: I think even handsomedan would admit he’s fairly new to EVs, and the trip you reference was (IIRC) his first long-distance trip. As posts in reply pointed out, he could have made different choices that would have simplified/sped up his trip, such as a willingness to use different charging companies, or sticking to charging between 20-80%. (As I’ve pointed out in other posts, in 3,000kms around the SI we had to wait a total of ZERO times; in all trips we’ve made around the country we’ve had to wait once, and that was years ago and In a place that is now much better-served for fast chargers.)

And another: you take the worst-cast scenarios of EV charging, and compare those with some fantasy version of reality where ICE drivers never have to wait to fuel their car. That’s just not the case, as others have already pointed out, yet you continue to use it as a base assumption.

We get that you’re not an EVanglist, but a little modicum of balance would go a long way…

RunningMan

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#3309599 16-Nov-2024 11:12

dafman:

@handsomedan. His post of 4 November on this thread. Travelling from Auckland to Napier, had to wait close to one hour at Taupo for a charger to come free, then a further 40 mins to charge.

Again, this is missing context. Nobody is saying there is never a queue for an EV charger, there clearly is on occasion, however it is increasingly less common and most of the time avoidable.

In the example you quote, the driver only wanted to use one company's charger. There were at least 2 other companies with larger charging sites in close proximity that were discounted. If you decide you'll only ever fill up at Waitomo branded service stations then your options would also be far more limited. At a quick count from Google, Taupo shows 10 petrol stations and 5 fast charge EV sites.

Finally, in the example quoted, I think that was the first longer distance drive for a quite new EV owner, and driving it more or less like an ICEV. They are different to drive, you do need to learn new habits, but different does not equal bad.

paulchinnz

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#3309600 16-Nov-2024 11:15

@jonathan18 - grateful if you can please forward systematically collected data on long distance travel in NZ for ICE vs EV?

Something like 1000 trips by ICE vs 1000 by EV? This isn't my area of expertise, would be interested to know how this sort of study is done.

That would help settle the debate, albeit acknowledge this is a dynamic space as number of EVs and charging stations change over time in NZ.

Jase2985

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#3309629 16-Nov-2024 12:13

dafman:

Jase2985:

dafman:

ICE owners never have to queue or wait for a refill

Complete BS on that one, at my local station there are 16 pumps, and regularly you have to wait for a pump, at the NPD in Manukau, which has 16 pumps, you regularly have to wait for a pump, so while the wait is not the same as it would be for an EV charging, there is still a wait.

@handsomedan. His post of 4 November on this thread. Travelling from Auckland to Napier, had to wait close to one hour at Taupo for a charger to come free, then a further 40 mins to charge.

If he had been driving an ICE, he would have experienced zero wait time, 5 mins to fill.

That’s 100 mins to juice up versus 5 mins.

and??? i don't get your point. all types of fuel station, ev and icev suffer from congestion at some point or another, it's not limited to one.

and in his case he chose to use one network, just like choosing to only use waitomo for your fuel, he goes there, there was a queue, could have gone somewhere else with no queue but didn't. Could have been a lot less time, but hey that's the way they choose to do it.

No one is debating ev's take longer to charge, but its not as bad as you are making it out to be, and a 10 minute toilet break is enough to put a decent amount of juice into a newer long range EV.

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tweake

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#3309645 16-Nov-2024 13:36

dafman:

I suspect sales will remain relatively subdued until the next EV breakthrough hits, eg. Longer range battery tech, quantum shift in charging times.

with catl releasing info on its solid state battery (500wh/kg) that break through should be in the next few years. that should enable cars to have 1000-1200 km range, 5-10 min charging speeds. that will also make ev utes, suv, a realistic option. that should give more efficient light weight short range commuters.

obviously charging setups will be the bottle necks but i think that will improve with time.

mass market buyers do not like buying something worse or different than what they are used to. if there is ev's with the same range, same fill up times, then its becomes an easy sell.

johno1234

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#3309718 16-Nov-2024 16:01

Jase2985:

dafman:

ICE owners never have to queue or wait for a refill

Complete BS on that one, at my local station there are 16 pumps, and regularly you have to wait for a pump, at the NPD in Manukau, which has 16 pumps, you regularly have to wait for a pump, so while the wait is not the same as it would be for an EV charging, there is still a wait.

Not BS IMHO. I would have to wait for a pump about once per year, and that guy will fill and be gone in 5 min. However I don't pick and choose a station to save a few dollars on the fill - time is worth more than the money.

Travelling around in your home town in an EV is easier than an ICE as home charging means you never have to visit a gas station. Long trips cross country are much easier in an ICE, especially if it can do 1000km on a tank like many modern diesels. EVs with posted 500km range are doing much less at open road speeds so with safety factor for unavailable or out of service chargers (why so many out of service?) you are going to need 2 stops minimum while the diesel has none on a 1000km trip.

Handsomedan

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#3309720 16-Nov-2024 16:14

Just to add to all the various arguments that I’ve been quoted in:

The biggest issue for a new EV driver coming from ICE driving is the inconvenience of charging.
It’s not just the time to charge, but the fact that chargers don’t have payment terminals on them.
You can’t just rock up to a charger that you don’t have an account for and charge (as far as I am aware), so it’s less convenient - whether in reality or perception.

ICE drivers need to be able to behave largely as they always have to be able to accept EV driving as a “normal” experience. It’s just the way it is right now.

It’s not always going to be like that (as has already been pointed out), but it’s like that right now.

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Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale

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MarkH67

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#3309721 16-Nov-2024 16:21

johno1234:

Long trips cross country are much easier in an ICE, especially if it can do 1000km on a tank like many modern diesels. EVs with posted 500km range are doing much less at open road speeds so with safety factor for unavailable or out of service chargers (why so many out of service?) you are going to need 2 stops minimum while the diesel has none on a 1000km trip.

This is very wrong for almost all drivers in this country.

1,000km would be a 12 hr trip at least, 99% of people will definitely be stopping on this trip. No only stopping, but stopping for a decent break and a meal. The vast majority of drivers will want more than 1 break, driving for 6 hours, taking a break, then driving for another 6 hours - that would be rather gruelling for most drivers. Most drivers do not have a 12 hour bladder either.

Not taking breaks on a 1,000km trip would be rather irresponsible, there is a real risk when driving fatigued.

In an EV, with a couple of stops for eating, peeing, stretching the legs, taking a much needed break from driving - with charging happening during those breaks, you would end up getting to the destination at the same time as a normal & sensible ICE driver taking the same breaks (even if the car isn't charging while he/she is eating).

Also: How many NZers do a 1,000km trip in 1 day? Bearing in mind that Picton to Invercargill is under 900km. I don't think that many people would decide to drive from Wellington to Cape Reinga in one day, with no stops.

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