Electric car total cost of ownership calculation

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#2004385 29-Apr-2018 08:13

MarkH67:

frankv:

We're talking about transport here. Local government pays for roading, apart from State Highways. How do you see Aucklanders subsidising rural areas?

If you truly believe that Aucklanders pay more than their share of taxes, you would presumably support the concept of Aucklanders paying for their own infrastructure, since that would result in a drop in Aucklanders' taxes.

And some rural town with a couple of hundred people are paying for their share of state highways throughout that area?

No, I would not. I don't support separating out every different part of the country and saying "stuff everyone else, from now on we only pay for our own stuff". There are plenty of businesses based in Auckland that service the entire country, there is no point in developing a big separation of who pays for what. Tax is gathered from all of NZ and tax is spent throughout all of NZ. What about the infrastructure of Auckland that is used to transport goods from Auckland ports to the rest of the country? What about when you buy stuff in a shop that they get from their suppliers - who happen to be in Auckland? Why the 'us vs them' mentality?

As long as AKL is not treated as the centre of the universe, and that only they contribute. And that the expenditure is shared equally

GV27

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#2004388 29-Apr-2018 08:22

tdgeek:

As long as AKL is not treated as the centre of the universe, and that only they contribute. And that the expenditure is shared equally

Auckland has funded infrastructure around the country for decades up to about the mid-2000s I believe. This funding for ATAP represents 38% of the national spend on transport projects and Auckland has 34%.There's massive push-back whenever Auckland gets anything but regional NZ is happy to keep taking funds that far exceed their per-capita funding levels. Hence these projects reflect the needs of Auckland now, not when they'll actually being delivered.

Anything with a positive BCR is a benefit to the whole country, not exclusively to Auckland, and it will be the same with Regional Rail etc. It just needs to be done. Enough of the backwards provincialism, let's just get on with it.

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#2004393 29-Apr-2018 08:35

Why not compare the ICE and EV at same value? While the ICE will be cooler, coolness is in the eye of the beholder. If you have solar PV, and the use case of the weekly commutes fits in, you can save a lot of money on fuel. More to save on servicing. More to save on repairs. Over time the ICE loses power due to wear, uses more fuel. The EV just loses some range, there isnt a higher "fuel" cost. I wouldn't be worried about depreciation as that applies to both. Few put aside money each week to do a full engine rebuild, they just flick the older car and wear the cost, but an EV you could put aside a few dollars each week to pay for a battery replacement.

If I had solar PV and a battery, and/or the feature to connect the EV to use as a battery (I read here thats possible but not yet?) thats compelling. Solar PV saves cost, and using it to fill the car or use the car to power the house, thats a great option.

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#2004395 29-Apr-2018 08:42

GV27:

tdgeek:

As long as AKL is not treated as the centre of the universe, and that only they contribute. And that the expenditure is shared equally

Auckland has funded infrastructure around the country for decades up to about the mid-2000s I believe. This funding for ATAP represents 38% of the national spend on transport projects and Auckland has 34%.There's massive push-back whenever Auckland gets anything but regional NZ is happy to keep taking funds that far exceed their per-capita funding levels. Hence these projects reflect the needs of Auckland now, not when they'll actually being delivered.

Anything with a positive BCR is a benefit to the whole country, not exclusively to Auckland, and it will be the same with Regional Rail etc. It just needs to be done. Enough of the backwards provincialism, let's just get on with it.

You believe? Or you know? I would have thought that if that was the case, it would make sense and be implemented to set the fuel tax nationally, but that hasn't happened. Expanding on that, and given the state of our roads and rail systems, and the need to review how NZ needs to be, why not create a plan for all NZ, here is what it will cost, here is the national fuel tax to pay for it. Generally that would be based on per capita, but there will be cases where it is more or less, but a national plan that is transparent would be the go. When AKL has its own fuel tax, the perception is that this is a one off high cost, hence its kept regional. Fact or not, thats the perception.

mdf

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#2004464 29-Apr-2018 11:26

tdgeek:

Why not compare the ICE and EV at same value? While the ICE will be cooler, coolness is in the eye of the beholder. If you have solar PV, and the use case of the weekly commutes fits in, you can save a lot of money on fuel. More to save on servicing. More to save on repairs. Over time the ICE loses power due to wear, uses more fuel. The EV just loses some range, there isnt a higher "fuel" cost. I wouldn't be worried about depreciation as that applies to both. Few put aside money each week to do a full engine rebuild, they just flick the older car and wear the cost, but an EV you could put aside a few dollars each week to pay for a battery replacement.

If I had solar PV and a battery, and/or the feature to connect the EV to use as a battery (I read here thats possible but not yet?) thats compelling. Solar PV saves cost, and using it to fill the car or use the car to power the house, thats a great option.

Comparing an ICE and BEV at the same price, you undoubtedly get more "features" in the ICE model. I appreciate that different people will value those features differently. But in my position, things like safety features (most obviously airbags) are a pretty compelling feature that I'm willing to pay for but are really hard to retrofit. Other features that I am factoring in for my age, stage and position in life are the size of the vehicle and (admittedly occasional) trips that would require longer legs than a BEV (that I can afford) can provide. I do appreciate that different people will value such features differently.

To get those same features, you need to spend more on the BEV. Suppose you need to spend $10K more on the BEV to get the features you want compared to the ICE, but will save $15K in running costs over the life of the vehicle. Makes sense to get the BEV. But that same $10K additional purchase price potentially doesn't stack up if you're only saving $5K of the life of the vehicle. This obviously doesn't include externalities like environmental factors.

From the looks of things, right now with my pretty short commuting patterns, it's a bit touch and go but the sums probably don't stack up. If you were commuting more like 50kms a day, the sums are a lot more in the BEV's favour.

But my sums were at least just what I could figure out myself from websites. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something significant though.

frednz

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#2004489 29-Apr-2018 12:02

mdf:

Comparing an ICE and BEV at the same price, you undoubtedly get more "features" in the ICE model. I appreciate that different people will value those features differently. But in my position, things like safety features (most obviously airbags) are a pretty compelling feature that I'm willing to pay for but are really hard to retrofit. Other features that I am factoring in for my age, stage and position in life are the size of the vehicle and (admittedly occasional) trips that would require longer legs than a BEV (that I can afford) can provide. I do appreciate that different people will value such features differently.

To get those same features, you need to spend more on the BEV. Suppose you need to spend $10K more on the BEV to get the features you want compared to the ICE, but will save $15K in running costs over the life of the vehicle. Makes sense to get the BEV. But that same $10K additional purchase price potentially doesn't stack up if you're only saving $5K of the life of the vehicle. This obviously doesn't include externalities like environmental factors.

From the looks of things, right now with my pretty short commuting patterns, it's a bit touch and go but the sums probably don't stack up. If you were commuting more like 50kms a day, the sums are a lot more in the BEV's favour.

But my sums were at least just what I could figure out myself from websites. Happy to be corrected if I've missed something significant though.

I think to make meaningful comparisons of the costs of owning EVs and petrol vehicles, you need to select a particular model of each and decide whether they are used or new models.

This is where it gets difficult because there are so few new BEVs available in NZ and those that are available cost $60,000 + giving rise to the potential for huge depreciation write-offs within a relatively short period of time (far greater than with "equivalent" new ICE vehicles).

So, it's clear that, if you buy a new BEV, it could cost double (or more) the cost of an "equivalent" new ICE vehicle, so the depreciation factor alone on the BEV would be much greater than any savings you get from running a new BEV.

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#2004495 29-Apr-2018 12:22

Double or more? That seems steep. The talk is its about 10k more. There arent many choices though

2019 Leaf, suggested US$35000, 60kW, 360km range, that seems not bad. New car, 5 door, small-medium size.

plod

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#2004498 29-Apr-2018 12:24

jarledb:
MarkH67:

I really believe that parking enforcement needs to step up and fine people for parking in EV charging spots when they are not charging or waiting for the charger.

A solid fix for regular cars parking in charging spots: Make them tow-away spots for non EV cars. That will make people stay well clear.

nothing frustrates me more then when pulling up to a petrol pump and some smug leaf owner has parked at the pump to run and get a latte at wild bean. True story.

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#2004505 29-Apr-2018 12:36

plod:
jarledb:

MarkH67:

I really believe that parking enforcement needs to step up and fine people for parking in EV charging spots when they are not charging or waiting for the charger.

A solid fix for regular cars parking in charging spots: Make them tow-away spots for non EV cars. That will make people stay well clear.

nothing frustrates me more then when pulling up to a petrol pump and some smug leaf owner has parked at the pump to run and get a latte at wild bean. True story.

I sense the J word.

frednz

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#2004513 29-Apr-2018 12:49

tdgeek:

Double or more? That seems steep. The talk is its about 10k more. There arent many choices though

2019 Leaf, suggested US$35000, 60kW, 360km range, that seems not bad. New car, 5 door, small-medium size.

At present, Nissan don't sell new EVs in NZ and if they did, they would probably cost around $60,000.

With a nice sporty brand new small petrol vehicle (about 4 metres long with all the bells and whistles), you can buy a Suzuki 2018 Sport for $30,000.

A nice brand new sporty small EV, about 4 metres long, would be the BMW i3, which costs in the range of $75,000 - $90,000 depending on the model you choose.

I would prefer the BMW i3, but my finances tell me otherwise!

plod

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#2004521 29-Apr-2018 12:58

tdgeek:
plod:
jarledb:

MarkH67:

I really believe that parking enforcement needs to step up and fine people for parking in EV charging spots when they are not charging or waiting for the charger.

A solid fix for regular cars parking in charging spots: Make them tow-away spots for non EV cars. That will make people stay well clear.

nothing frustrates me more then when pulling up to a petrol pump and some smug leaf owner has parked at the pump to run and get a latte at wild bean. True story.

I sense the J word.

yes I did consider the guy a jerk.

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GV27

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#2004650 29-Apr-2018 18:32

tdgeek:

You believe? Or you know? I would have thought that if that was the case, it would make sense and be implemented to set the fuel tax nationally, but that hasn't happened. Expanding on that, and given the state of our roads and rail systems, and the need to review how NZ needs to be, why not create a plan for all NZ, here is what it will cost, here is the national fuel tax to pay for it. Generally that would be based on per capita, but there will be cases where it is more or less, but a national plan that is transparent would be the go. When AKL has its own fuel tax, the perception is that this is a one off high cost, hence its kept regional. Fact or not, thats the perception.

I know, I just can't tell you the year it changed. It was under the Clark govt though; that's many years of Aucklanders paying more to top up projects in parts of NZ without the population base to support them to catch up on. Funny how that 'perception' gets forgotten when people want to have a whinge about Auckland getting stuff it badly needs.

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#2004651 29-Apr-2018 18:37

tdgeek:

Double or more? That seems steep. The talk is its about 10k more. There arent many choices though

2019 Leaf, suggested US$35000, 60kW, 360km range, that seems not bad. New car, 5 door, small-medium size.

You can get a Land Rover Discovery for that money, or a BMW 320, or a BMW X2, Audi A4 (or the A5 for a few more quid) ... hmmm Leaf is not gonna sell any cars lol

tdgeek

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#2004654 29-Apr-2018 18:39

GV27:

tdgeek:

You believe? Or you know? I would have thought that if that was the case, it would make sense and be implemented to set the fuel tax nationally, but that hasn't happened. Expanding on that, and given the state of our roads and rail systems, and the need to review how NZ needs to be, why not create a plan for all NZ, here is what it will cost, here is the national fuel tax to pay for it. Generally that would be based on per capita, but there will be cases where it is more or less, but a national plan that is transparent would be the go. When AKL has its own fuel tax, the perception is that this is a one off high cost, hence its kept regional. Fact or not, thats the perception.

I know, I just can't tell you the year it changed. It was under the Clark govt though; that's many years of Aucklanders paying more to top up projects in parts of NZ without the population base to support them to catch up on. Funny how that 'perception' gets forgotten when people want to have a whinge about Auckland getting stuff it badly needs.

Given the gravity of it, it needs to be transparent, so that whiners are put to rest. A pool today shows its about 50/50 for AKL'ers on the tax. But for others, no one else gets a fuel tax to pay for it, so the perception, is that its an AKL cost as they have not kept up with need, so the costs are past costs that have not been spent in the past but should have been.

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#2004687 29-Apr-2018 19:41

Batman:

hmmm Leaf is not gonna sell any cars lol

how wrong you will be

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