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Scott3
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  #3354425 16-Mar-2025 18:18
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Summary of the above video for those that don't want to sit through it.

It's a test of Autonomous Emergency breaking between a car (teals) depending on camera's and one depending on Lidar.

Ultimately looking into Elon Musks famous 2019 quote:

“Lidar is a fool’s errand,” Elon Musk said. “Anyone relying on lidar is doomed. Doomed! [They are] expensive sensors that are unnecessary. It’s like having a whole bunch of expensive appendices. Like, one appendix is bad, well now you have a whole bunch of them, it’s ridiculous, you’ll see.”

 

If I recall rightly the logic was that if people can safely drive cars with visual inputs only, that a sufficiently computer should be able to do the same. I think the premise here is slightly flawed. I think we rightly hold autonomous systems to a higher standard than human systems when it comes to life safety, so simply matching human performance is not good enough.

 

Click to see spoiler(s)

Lidar fitted car (Looked like a Lexus RX) was tested against a Tesla Model Y (camera's only) in a bunch of simple to extremely challenging situations to test Autonomous Emergency breaking.

 

  • Tesla's Autonomous breaking was set to break very late (Assumed to minimize false positives). It braked so late in the most simple test (stationary child Mannequin in the middle of the lane), that there was enough of an impact the Mannequin was decapitated. As such Autopilot mode (which did pass the simple tests) was used for the remainder of the tests.
  • The Lexus braked harder or earler. Seemed to always come to a stop about double the distance from the hazard.
  • Lexus with LIDAR passed every test with flying color's. (even the water test which is a pain point of LIDAR performance)
  • Tesla passed the stationary child, moving child & stationary child with super bright blinding lights behind tests (despite the drivers not being able to see the child at all).
  • Tesla failed the following tests:

     

    • Rain (comical amounts of water sprayed by multiple water trucks, somewhat visually obscuring a child)
    • Fog (enough artificial fog that a stationary child was not visable at all to the naked eye)
    • Painted wall - A wall painted to look like a continuation of the road.

The findings are fairly damming for Tesla. Without autopilot on the Tesla failed the most basic AEB test on offer. And it was noted that with autopilot on that it gets a lot of false positives.

It was not a surprise that the camera's were unable to detect the child in the rain (water jets) & heavy fog test, but it is concerning that the Autopilot system (on autopilot mode) would continue at high speed into water jets / fog that it could not see into.

 

Final (painted wall) test outcome, was not really a surprise, Clearly designed to trick the autopilot system. Still it was very obvious to a human viewer that they had a wall erected with a picture on it.

 

 

 

Ultimate conclusion was that the Lexus Lidar system far outperforms the Tesla's camera system.

Given Lidar system's have got small and cheap enough that the you tuber was able to smuggle one into a theme park roller coaster's, with hindsight it seems like a big mistake for Tesla to use just camera's in it's system's.




Mehrts
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  #3354427 16-Mar-2025 18:53
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I'd have liked to see the differences between the Tesla Autopilot and FSD (Full Self Drive) software, and how they reacted to each scenario.

They use the same cameras, however use very different software processing. Based on what I've seen from FSD in the US, the FSD is much more advanced in what and how it reacts to situations.

There are a lot of people calling for the same test to be carried out using FSD, as they're all keen to know how the system can work to it's best potential.

The Autopilot functionality hasn't really been updated in years at this point.

Is it a moot point against LiDAR? Of course, because you just can't beat physics. However, having the most developed vision-only software should have been a priority.

That LiDAR unit in the video is also around the $30k USD mark.


deepred
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  #3354468 17-Mar-2025 00:44
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"I regret to say that we of the F.B.I. are powerless to act in cases of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate commerce." — J. Edgar Hoover

"Create a society that values material things above all else. Strip it of industry. Raise taxes for the poor and reduce them for the rich and for corporations. Prop up failed financial institutions with public money. Ask for more tax, while vastly reducing public services. Put adverts everywhere, regardless of people's ability to afford the things they advertise. Allow the cost of food and housing to eclipse people's ability to pay for them. Light blue touch paper." — Andrew Maxwell




Azzura
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  #3354511 17-Mar-2025 10:20
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I tend to roll my eyes when I see comments - What do EV owners do when the power goes out?

Which... I tend to reply......they run their house.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/motoring/motoring-news/ev-owners-thankful-after-storm/news-story/fca48ee1c790ffd094fed852a43c8f1e


SaltyNZ
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  #3354742 18-Mar-2025 08:54
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Azzura:

 

I tend to roll my eyes when I see comments - What do EV owners do when the power goes out?

Which... I tend to reply......they run their house.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/motoring/motoring-news/ev-owners-thankful-after-storm/news-story/fca48ee1c790ffd094fed852a43c8f1e

 

 

 

 

Or, what do ICE owners do when the power goes out? Pump their petrol by hand?





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


alasta
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  #3354744 18-Mar-2025 09:04
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There seem to be some pretty good deals on the MG4 at the moment. In fact they seem to be very close to price parity compared with an equivalent petrol vehicle, which potentially makes it financially viable for people who can't charge at home. 

 

If you only ever charge an EV using public chargers, does that cause premature wear on the battery? If you use 50kw chargers rather than the faster 100kw or 150kw chargers, does that cause less wear on the battery over the long term? 


SaltyNZ
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  #3354749 18-Mar-2025 09:40
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alasta:

 

If you only ever charge an EV using public chargers, does that cause premature wear on the battery? If you use 50kw chargers rather than the faster 100kw or 150kw chargers, does that cause less wear on the battery over the long term? 

 

 

 

 

If you're talking about a Leaf then yes you will cook your battery real fast. But a modern EV battery with liquid cooling seems to not be as bad as people once suspected. The data is inconclusive enough that if there is an effect on a modern battery, it's small.





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jonathan18
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  #3354788 18-Mar-2025 11:31
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SaltyNZ:

 

alasta:

 

If you only ever charge an EV using public chargers, does that cause premature wear on the battery? If you use 50kw chargers rather than the faster 100kw or 150kw chargers, does that cause less wear on the battery over the long term? 

 

 

If you're talking about a Leaf then yes you will cook your battery real fast. But a modern EV battery with liquid cooling seems to not be as bad as people once suspected. The data is inconclusive enough that if there is an effect on a modern battery, it's small.

 

 

The other aspect at the moment is it also relates to where you live, as many parts of the country don’t have many (if any) decently fast chargers. Main urban centres seem to be ok, but my experience of a few days up in the far north with a rental EV was 50kW was as good as it gets, with some still 25kW! TBH, it’s not necessarily a huge issue with some of the cheaper EVs (eg our base-model MG4 tops out at 88kW) but this lack of the faster DC chargers will add time and hassle for some if relying on ‘fast’ chargers.


Dingbatt
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  #3354805 18-Mar-2025 13:25
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At the moment the going rate for public charging is about 80c/kWh. With the way NZ’s electricity market works I imagine that will go to $1/kWh in the not too distant future.

 

So for an EV that does 15kWh/100km, that is 15c/km and add on 7.2c/km for RUC, which is 22.2c/km ($22.20/100km, if my maths is correct). That equates to an ICE vehicle that uses 7.2l/100km (using $3/litre for 95RON).

 

Since there are plenty of hybrids, many of which run on cheaper 91RON, that will return economy figures way better than 7.2l/100km, you wouldn’t want to get an EV if you didn’t have charging at home or work, if your goal was to save money.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


  #3354807 18-Mar-2025 13:29
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jonathan18:
The other aspect at the moment is it also relates to where you live, as many parts of the country don’t have many (if any) decently fast chargers. Main urban centres seem to be ok, but my experience of a few days up in the far north with a rental EV was 50kW was as good as it gets, with some still 25kW! TBH, it’s not necessarily a huge issue with some of the cheaper EVs (eg our base-model MG4 tops out at 88kW) but this lack of the faster DC chargers will add time and hassle for some if relying on ‘fast’ chargers.

 

In my admittedly limited experience in Oz, one way of dealing with the fact that the local electricity distribution network simply can't cope with really fast chargers is to have the charger include a decent sized battery bank. That way the charger can draw 25kW or 50kW from the local grid - continuously if needed - but deliver much faster than that from the batteries for short periods while a vehicle charges up. The batteries recharge in the gaps between vehicles. This solves the problem that adding a point load of say 150kW would cause voltage instability to other consumers on the long thin rural or rural town distribution network


alasta
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  #3354813 18-Mar-2025 14:18
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Dingbatt:

 

At the moment the going rate for public charging is about 80c/kWh. With the way NZ’s electricity market works I imagine that will go to $1/kWh in the not too distant future.

 

So for an EV that does 15kWh/100km, that is 15c/km and add on 7.2c/km for RUC, which is 22.2c/km ($22.20/100km, if my maths is correct). That equates to an ICE vehicle that uses 7.2l/100km (using $3/litre for 95RON).

 

Since there are plenty of hybrids, many of which run on cheaper 91RON, that will return economy figures way better than 7.2l/100km, you wouldn’t want to get an EV if you didn’t have charging at home or work, if your goal was to save money.

 

 

Yes, but that's because hybrids benefit from the existing system of fuel excise duty. I just did a back of the envelope calculation and I broadly agree with your conclusion as far as the status quo is concerned, but if hybrids were paying RUC rather than FED then the hybrid would need to be using less than about 5.5l/100km to be cheaper than public charging an electric car. 

 

For me the eventual changeover to fleetwide RUC will probably be a good time to seriously look at making the move to electric. 


johno1234
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  #3354826 18-Mar-2025 16:37
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Dingbatt:

 

At the moment the going rate for public charging is about 80c/kWh. With the way NZ’s electricity market works I imagine that will go to $1/kWh in the not too distant future.

 

So for an EV that does 15kWh/100km, that is 15c/km and add on 7.2c/km for RUC, which is 22.2c/km ($22.20/100km, if my maths is correct). That equates to an ICE vehicle that uses 7.2l/100km (using $3/litre for 95RON).

 

Since there are plenty of hybrids, many of which run on cheaper 91RON, that will return economy figures way better than 7.2l/100km, you wouldn’t want to get an EV if you didn’t have charging at home or work, if your goal was to save money.

 

 

Wow. My diesel ($2/L) SUV is therefore way cheaper.

 

However there are some household power plans that allow use of some fast charger networks at your domestic power rate? Important for people who park on the street and can't charge at home at all.


HarmLessSolutions
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  #3354829 18-Mar-2025 17:00
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alasta:

 

Yes, but that's because hybrids benefit from the existing system of fuel excise duty. I just did a back of the envelope calculation and I broadly agree with your conclusion as far as the status quo is concerned, but if hybrids were paying RUC rather than FED then the hybrid would need to be using less than about 5.5l/100km to be cheaper than public charging an electric car. 

 

For me the eventual changeover to fleetwide RUC will probably be a good time to seriously look at making the move to electric. 

 

Your calculation assumes that RUCs will be accompanied by a complete removal of FET. This strategy would be a windfall for high consumption vehicles as the pump price would reduce substantially while they pay the same RUC rate as more efficient vehicles. The addition of some sort of carbon or ETS tax onto petrol price would be required to counter this unintended consequence, that is if the government has any intentions whatsoever in terms of emissions reduction.





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


martyyn
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  #3354894 18-Mar-2025 17:29
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johno1234:

 

Wow. My diesel ($2/L) SUV is therefore way cheaper.

 

 

Easy there tiger.

 

The numbers used were $1/kWh, it's currently significantly cheaper at 80c, which makes it the same (19.2c/km) as our 2l diesel (6.2l @ $1.98/l locally).

 

I don't know too many EV owners who only charge in the wild, ours charges at night when it's 13c/kW, which puts it at 9.15c/km.


dafman
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  #3354899 18-Mar-2025 18:02
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alasta:

 

There seem to be some pretty good deals on the MG4 at the moment. In fact they seem to be very close to price parity compared with an equivalent petrol vehicle, which potentially makes it financially viable for people who can't charge at home. 

 

 

I cannot imagine why anyone who can’t charge at home would be interested in an EV. “Bye hon, I’m just popping out for an hour to fill up the car”


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