Why is there no virtual card Snapper?

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#2850713 14-Jan-2022 13:21

xlinknz:

Thank you all for the replies

It is stated that the National Ticketing Solution is expected in Wgtn late 22 (that is this year!) or early 23 but I found a stuff article that said those dates were implementation dates from a Roadmap...add NZTA/Waka Kotahi have it seems have a poor record on delivery of projects esp. ICT ones so I don't put any faith in those dates.

This recent stuff article says Snapper being piloted on the Wellington metro trains (my line) is in preparation for the National Ticketing solution but that doesn't make sense if NEXT is supposed to be token/card less, so why would the old school Snapper physical card system be a pilot if a) it would need to be replaced with a token/card less capable system or a different provider (unless the snapon/off stations deployed are already capable of supporting token based apps b) NEXT comes within 12 months?

Probably because Snapper don't believe the National Ticketing Solution is going to be delivered anytime soon...

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#2850772 14-Jan-2022 13:46

allan:

Probably because Snapper don't believe the National Ticketing Solution is going to be delivered anytime soon...

Also because local councils love reinventing the wheel,

Auckland have already made this transition, but they had a bunch of govt $$$ to help with their initial HOP card rollout, Wellington could go ask them what worked and what didn't... But have decided that they need to chart their own course until they get dragged into the National ticketing solution

(if it every arrives, HOP was originally touted as being the national solution, but I suspect that all died in a screaming mess over who got their fingers on the float)

"In preparation for this, Metlink is implementing a contactless payment pilot with Snapper card payments on the Johnsonville Line from 14 November 2021, this gives us an opportunity to test, learn and establish the best possible customer experience as we progress toward implementing contactless payment for rail. "

https://www.metlink.org.nz/news-and-updates/plans-and-projects/national-ticketing-solution/

lissie

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#2850948 14-Jan-2022 17:43

Meanwhile the world has moved on - last time I was in Sydney pre-Pandemic they had moved on from using a debit card system to just tracking your use of your own db/cr card and giving you the appropriate discounts. Researching a trip a way -and even the US - home of car and not pubic transport - now uses cards which are FREE for goodness sakes

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xlinknz

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#2851084 15-Jan-2022 09:08

@lissie

yes it seems some jurisdictions provide cards free and a discounted fare maybe Metlink in Wgtn did not want to reduce the existing ticket cost to provide an incentive for customers to use 'electronic' ticketing least they loose income and the way for Snapper to get revenue is to provide over priced cards? (and since card less would require a different commercial model and tech capability Snapper don't have)

Maybe the answer is the option of two or more providers to ensure competition that benefits the customer. I wonder if that approach has been considered

lissie

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#2851096 15-Jan-2022 10:55

xlinknz:

@lissie

yes it seems some jurisdictions provide cards free and a discounted fare maybe Metlink in Wgtn did not want to reduce the existing ticket cost to provide an incentive for customers to use 'electronic' ticketing least they loose income and the way for Snapper to get revenue is to provide over priced cards? (and since card less would require a different commercial model and tech capability Snapper don't have)

Maybe the answer is the option of two or more providers to ensure competition that benefits the customer. I wonder if that approach has been considered

Probably we should all just be cycling up and down Wellington hills! Its quite easy to get people to use public transport - you make it much easier/quicker/cheaper than driving. I personally never use Wellington public transport -I'll drive a car or a motorbike because its not just faster is cheaper! I have no idea how people afford Wellington transport fares.

I'm researching a trip overseas later this year. In Oahu/Honolulu it costs over US$100/day to hire a car, 1/2 that to park it at your hotel overnight. The bus is $2.75 a ride - that's up to 2 hours doesn't matter how many transfers could be a return trip. Or you get a free card from any local store and the max is $5.50 a day for as many trips as you want to make.

San Francisco has a similar deal for unlimited bus/train/tram rides @ $5/day for the downtown /tourist area. There you don't even need a card - you download the free app put some money on it and then use it as your ticket - can be offline you don't need continuous internet access. Again no one in their right mind would attempt to drive in the city or park. I know much of the USA you need a car (that's why I was researching if I needed to hire again) - the answer for these 2 cities was a resounding no. Wellington should be the same answer - but its not. The fact that you can still pay a fare on a train with a bit of cardboard and cash (only) - is quite frankly an historical amazement - but its hardly an efficient way to run a public transport system.

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rugrat

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#2851102 15-Jan-2022 11:46

I hope everyone is not forced to Snapper as the national system, it looks terrible. In Christchurch can top up our bus cards online, no phone NFC needed, no extra charge for top ups, discounted fares to cash, and only scan getting on bus, not getting off. Can also give bus driver money to top up as well when boarding.

If lose card guessing $5, as that is cost of new card.

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antonknee

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#2851107 15-Jan-2022 12:04

Ah yes the long saga of public transport ticketing. The full story includes quite a villainous appearance by Snapper in Auckland.

Essentially AT's Hop was intended to be the national solution, and there were plans to build 'open loop' capability into it (this is the ability to use a contactless credit or debit card instead of a stored value card much like Sydney's Opal or London's Oyster systems (which incidentally are actually the same technology as each other - TfL basically invented the open loop tech - but Hop is a different stack from a different vendor)). This open loop build for Hop is now on hold pending the national ticketing solution.

The national ticketing solution is held up because unfortunately GWRC don't want Hop, despite it being ready to go, because it wasn't invented in Wellington, because of Snapper, and also because AT control the float for Hop which is worth pretty big money. So Project Next goes back to the drawing board to start all over again, despite Hop already existing, and no doubt is going to waste a bunch of money reinventing the wheel. Thanks Wellington, ruining things for Auckland since ages ago.

Stored value/token systems work best in practice because you can't guarantee that buses etc will have continual network access, and they also allow for the unbanked to have access to the system by using a dedicated PT card/tag. The model/technology used by Sydney and London is fantastic.

xlinknz

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#2851118 15-Jan-2022 12:41

It seems the National system (NEXT) has been dragging on for over 10 years at goodness knows what taxpayer cost as high lighted in this article.

In regards to Snapper on the Wgtn Metro trains the situation is probably best summed up as '10 years too late and with 10 year old technology'

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#2851119 15-Jan-2022 12:45

rugrat:

I hope everyone is not forced to Snapper as the national system, it looks terrible. In Christchurch can top up our bus cards online, no phone NFC needed, no extra charge for top ups, discounted fares to cash, and only scan getting on bus, not getting off. Can also give bus driver money to top up as well when boarding.

If lose card guessing $5, as that is cost of new card.

Can visitors get bus cards from the airport yet?

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PolicyGuy

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#2851124 15-Jan-2022 13:16

antonknee:

Stored value/token systems work best in practice because you can't guarantee that buses etc will have continual network access, and they also allow for the unbanked to have access to the system by using a dedicated PT card/tag.

The model/technology used by Sydney and London is fantastic.

This

I think Oyster (London) & Opal (Sydney) are the same technology as the Hong Kong Octopus card. I've used Opal & Oyster, and they Just Work very easily and very effectively. 👍👍

When you say these stored value cards "allow for the unbanked to have access", I should point out that overseas visitors are also effectively unbanked, so benefit enormously from having access. I don't need an Aussie bank account to use an Opal - definitely an advantage

One advantage the Oyster card has is that it's usable to make non-transport purchases in quite a few places.
This was good for me as I overestimated the cost of transport and put too much money on my Octopus, but was able to spend the surplus on buying lunches LOL.
I think Snapper was originally supposed to have this feature, but don't remember if it actually happened?

Edit: spelling

rugrat

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#2851159 15-Jan-2022 15:44

Shadowfoot:

rugrat:

I hope everyone is not forced to Snapper as the national system, it looks terrible. In Christchurch can top up our bus cards online, no phone NFC needed, no extra charge for top ups, discounted fares to cash, and only scan getting on bus, not getting off. Can also give bus driver money to top up as well when boarding.

If lose card guessing $5, as that is cost of new card.

Can visitors get bus cards from the airport yet?

Looks like answer is no. Places in link below or can order online. Says ID is needed as well.

https://www.metroinfo.co.nz/metrocard/where-to-buy/

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old3eyes

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#2851177 15-Jan-2022 17:00

I got an email June last year from the Queensland Transport people saying that they were fazing out there Go Card ticketing system and going with NFC Visa, Mastercard and Amex or your cell phone. Makes life allot easier for visitors that's for sure.

Pity NZ operators didn't move into the 21st century as well.

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rugrat

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#2851194 15-Jan-2022 18:18

old3eyes:

I got an email June last year from the Queensland Transport people saying that they were fazing out there Go Card ticketing system and going with NFC Visa, Mastercard and Amex or your cell phone. Makes life allot easier for visitors that's for sure.

Pity NZ operators didn't move into the 21st century as well.

If paying by contactless credit card can they still charge according to how you travel. I.e in Christchurch first trip in first two hours charged, many trips as like no further charge. After two hours another charge then rest of day free travel.

I’m not expecting you to know answer old3eyes, just a query in relation to using credit cards directly or other transport payment methods.

sbiddle

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#2851196 15-Jan-2022 18:33

rugrat:

I hope everyone is not forced to Snapper as the national system, it looks terrible. In Christchurch can top up our bus cards online, no phone NFC needed, no extra charge for top ups, discounted fares to cash, and only scan getting on bus, not getting off. Can also give bus driver money to top up as well when boarding.

If lose card guessing $5, as that is cost of new card.

None of this is anything to do with Snapper.

The reality is even Christchurch have a system that is very much legacy. Stored value cards of any sort are regarded as a legacy solution these days with the move towards tokenisation.

Requiring connectivity to every bus to upload stored value cards is just a nightmare and one of the reasons very few places anywhere in the world have opted for this. Likewise other points you raise such as not requiring to tag off are nothing to do with the card platform used, they're a business decision that revolves around pricing. In NZ it's normal to price PT journeys via zone rather than a plat rate so tagging on and off is the only way this can work.

Encouraging the use of cash and even encouraging drivers to accept case for topups seems a very early 2000's approach to a solution. The goal is to move away from cash, not to keep embracing it! Being able to simply top up a card direct from your phone is sooo much easier.

As for earlier comments about the Semble SIM these still work fine for Snapper in Wellington. I got a new phone this week and didn't have SWP and the API support in my old Sony so it never worked. When I put it into my new S21 I have my Snapper card balance immediately displayed in the app.

There are still limitations of tokenisation and using credit cards though, but they come down to how PT operators price fares and passes. Both London and Sydney faced a lot of issues and didn't offer some things such as free travel and passes when you used a credit card rather than an Oyster / Opal simply because charging became far too complex with tokenisation but was easy with a stored value card.

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#2851197 15-Jan-2022 18:36

lissie:

I'm researching a trip overseas later this year. In Oahu/Honolulu it costs over US$100/day to hire a car, 1/2 that to park it at your hotel overnight. The bus is $2.75 a ride - that's up to 2 hours doesn't matter how many transfers could be a return trip. Or you get a free card from any local store and the max is $5.50 a day for as many trips as you want to make.

Car hire in Waikiki itself has always been a nightmare - there is very limited parking so they can charge what they want.

Rental car prices have also soared in the US due to Covid and the big selloffs of car fleets

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