Auckland International Airport - Domestic Terminal Changes

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#3053943 24-Mar-2023 01:50

Technofreak:

I thought the original idea was for the northern (shorter) runway to service the domestic terminal which was to be on the northern side of the International terminal. Looks like that's no longer happening.

The integrated terminal with domestic at the eastern end of terminal 2 was announced in 2017. This isn't new.

The northern runway will be mostly domestic/regional operations.

Handle9

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#3053944 24-Mar-2023 02:02

Handle9:

Technofreak:

I thought the original idea was for the northern (shorter) runway to service the domestic terminal which was to be on the northern side of the International terminal. Looks like that's no longer happening.

The integrated terminal with domestic at the eastern end of terminal 2 was announced in 2017. This isn't new.

The northern runway will be mostly domestic/regional operations.

2014, not 2017 - my bad

Technofreak

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#3053973 24-Mar-2023 09:24

Handle9:

Technofreak:

I thought the original idea was for the northern (shorter) runway to service the domestic terminal which was to be on the northern side of the International terminal. Looks like that's no longer happening.

The integrated terminal with domestic at the eastern end of terminal 2 was announced in 2017. This isn't new.

The northern runway will be mostly domestic/regional operations.

Correct it's not new. If my memory serves me correctly it pre dates 2017 and 2014 by a big margin.

If you look at the taxiway layout and the location of the second runway, building the domestic terminal to the east as with the current proposal doesn't make any sense. My hazy memory of the original proposal put the domestic terminal to the west or north west of the international terminal closer to the northern runway, thus fitting in with the taxyway layout.

By putting the domestic terminal where they're proposing tells me they have no intention of progressing the second runway anytime in the next 30 or so years.

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empacher48

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#3053975 24-Mar-2023 09:37

Handle9:
Technofreak:

I thought the original idea was for the northern (shorter) runway to service the domestic terminal which was to be on the northern side of the International terminal. Looks like that's no longer happening.

The integrated terminal with domestic at the eastern end of terminal 2 was announced in 2017. This isn't new.

The northern runway will be mostly domestic/regional operations.

That idea was changed prior to covid, the northern runway was restarted with the taxiway Lima and Mike extensions to be a 3200m runway.

The idea of an 1800m runway north of the airport upset Airways and Air NZ. Only three domestic routes going north of Auckland, vs all of the rest south. Airways came up with routing that departures and arrivals would pass over the top of Auckland Airport to either depart or arrive on the northern runway. Meanwhile all international departures go North of Auckland.

Locals got upset with the idea of every domestic flight having to make a climbing turn over Auckland city to head south, or arriving aircraft doing much the same. Meanwhile international departures of the southern runway would have inefficient hold downs until they passed north of the northern runway approach and departure area.

Horribly inefficient and expensive to the point that a short northern runway wouldn’t be used, except if you’re going to Northland or Great Barrier.

Sydney and Brisbane with their parallel runways have the right idea, where you arrive from or depart to, means what runway you use. Building an 1800m runway to the north would be OK for an A320/321 to land on, but be significantly payload restricted for an international departure.

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#3053984 24-Mar-2023 10:09

I'm a little disappointed that the airport company have not considered a north/south runway in addition to the planned northern 23R/05L runway.

A north/south runway might be deemed excessive, but look at Sydney when they have strong easterly or westerly winds, it's havoc but at least the airport can continue to operate.

There have been a few instances in recent times where strong crosswinds at Auckland have made it difficult or impossible for regional turbo-prop aircraft to operate.

Recent Police helicopter activity has closed the approach path to runway 23 from the east over Manukau City, and effectively stopped operations for thirty minutes or so, while Police attend to issues using their helicopter which evidently has priority access to that airspace regardless to scheduled flights. I'm a minor shareholder of Auckland Airport and asked a question last year at the shareholder's meeting about why the northern runway has been delayed. They weren't overly enthusiastic about answering.

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#3053993 24-Mar-2023 10:58

I lived in Dublin and travel extensively for work. Dublin aiport runs the main runway (10/28) which runs almost East to West but has an alternative runway (16/34) that runs ~75* to the main runway. This 2nd runway is utilised when the prevailing winds change and allows the airport to continue operations when it would otherwise have had to shut. The statics show that runway 10/28 is used for 95% of take offs and landings so 16/34 is rarely used.

An alternate runway that is used rarely is a large expense so I'm not surprised that Auckland airport are reluctant to invest in it.

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Technofreak

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#3054000 24-Mar-2023 11:30

geek3001:

I'm a little disappointed that the airport company have not considered a north/south runway in addition to the planned northern 23R/05L runway.

A north/south runway might be deemed excessive, but look at Sydney when they have strong easterly or westerly winds, it's havoc but at least the airport can continue to operate.

There have been a few instances in recent times where strong crosswinds at Auckland have made it difficult or impossible for regional turbo-prop aircraft to operate.

Recent Police helicopter activity has closed the approach path to runway 23 from the east over Manukau City, and effectively stopped operations for thirty minutes or so, while Police attend to issues using their helicopter which evidently has priority access to that airspace regardless to scheduled flights. I'm a minor shareholder of Auckland Airport and asked a question last year at the shareholder's meeting about why the northern runway has been delayed. They weren't overly enthusiastic about answering.

There is nowhere to build a north/south runway, plus it would almost never be used.

A north/south runway in New Zealand is generally a waste of space and only built (Hamilton being the prime exception) where it isn't possible to build a runway into the prevailing winds. Your Sydney example is a case in point. The main runway isn't built to face the prevailing winds hence the need for the secondary east west runway.

Can you name those instances where it's been impossible to land at Auckland. With one exception, I can't think of any and I operate in and out of Auckland on a daily basis.

I am also unaware of times when the Police helicopter has stopped operations at Auckland airport. Quite to the contrary they don't have priority, they regularly don't get access when there's an aircraft arriving/departing.

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Technofreak

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#3054049 24-Mar-2023 11:37

empacher48:

That idea was changed prior to covid, the northern runway was restarted with the taxiway Lima and Mike extensions to be a 3200m runway.

The idea of an 1800m runway north of the airport upset Airways and Air NZ. Only three domestic routes going north of Auckland, vs all of the rest south. Airways came up with routing that departures and arrivals would pass over the top of Auckland Airport to either depart or arrive on the northern runway. Meanwhile all international departures go North of Auckland.

Locals got upset with the idea of every domestic flight having to make a climbing turn over Auckland city to head south, or arriving aircraft doing much the same. Meanwhile international departures of the southern runway would have inefficient hold downs until they passed north of the northern runway approach and departure area.

Horribly inefficient and expensive to the point that a short northern runway wouldn’t be used, except if you’re going to Northland or Great Barrier.

Sydney and Brisbane with their parallel runways have the right idea, where you arrive from or depart to, means what runway you use. Building an 1800m runway to the north would be OK for an A320/321 to land on, but be significantly payload restricted for an international departure.

Good points. While from a ground point of view the north western location of the domestic terminal with respect to the northern runway made a lot sense it sure was a buggers muddle from an air traffic routing perspective.

Based on your post I'd say the northern runway will never happen.

Perhaps they really need to take the bull by the horns and reclaim land to the south of the airport build the secondary parallel runway to the south and relocate the all the terminal facilities to lie between both runways. I don't see what they have now being able to be expanded efficiently.

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geek3001

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#3054050 24-Mar-2023 11:43

Fair point re lack of space for a north south runway, apologies, I should have clarified my comment on the basis of longer term planning to leave space. We can only hope the changing climate does not result in a future change of predominant winds to north / south.

I can't recall specific times when operations have been affected by winds but I have seen that happen, I could retrieve radar logs but that would be a bit time consuming.

The most recent instance of the Police helicopter affecting RW23 operations was in September last year per this article https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/shots-fired-at-police-in-operation-that-delays-international-domestic-flights/OZYQZNZRYESCMVZZ7G3OJCKCLM/

empacher48

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#3054051 24-Mar-2023 11:46

Technofreak:

Good points. While from a ground point of view the north western location of the domestic terminal with respect to the northern runway made a lot sense it sure was a buggers muddle from an air traffic routing perspective.

Based on your post I'd say the northern runway will never happen.

Perhaps they really need to take the bull by the horns and reclaim land to the south of the airport build the secondary parallel runway to the south and relocate the all the terminal facilities to lie between both runways. I don't see what they have now being able to be expanded efficiently.

The new integrated domestic terminal is going where the tennis court is now (layover stands 70-73 and 82-84 and taxiway delta will go). They have finished the new permanent airside access point which enters the apron area by gate 20 is ready to go for the domestic terminal works.

So still preferential to using the southern runway for domestic ops.

They haven’t announced anything but they have restarted the earthworks for layover stands north of the international pier B, which will eventually turn into aerobridge gates. So the taxiway Lima and Mike extensions won’t be too far away either. As they’ll need those extra layover gates once the tennis court turns into a construction zone.

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#3054086 24-Mar-2023 13:02

Separating the regional & jet domestic terminals seems, well odd.

Would make Auckland a relatively unattractive place to transfer (regional to jet), so would have quite an impact on the NZ regional network. (a 30min transfer time is a bit hard with a terminal change).

And I wonder if there is enough regional flights to support a good range of food options in a regional terminal...

Seems like a half way solution in that regard, but yet the cost is in the billions. It dosn't really seem to fit into the long term airport plan for a single terminal.

Personally don't really mind the separate terminals. Things like traffic, carparking, taxi stands etc are all easier to handle with the number of people split in half accross two sites. (that said I live in Auckland so never transfer here).

Auckland lacks a high capacity rail link to the airport, so there is less reason to bring the operation together to serve a single rail stop.

Domestic / international transfers tend to be multiple hours, so a 10min trip between domestic & international terminals is less of a big deal. pain of walking the Green line in the rain could be mitigated by installing an automated people mover. Would cost just a few million.

With regards to the additional runway, the trend for more modern airports larger airports seems to be multiple parallel runways. While Auckland is a windy city by international standards, the airport seems to be rarely closed for high winds.

I think the current proposed length of the second runway is 2983m

Not sure who should pick up the cost, But I think it would be beneficial for a civilian airport in the north island to be upgraded with a 3,000m odd runway, so it can be used as an become an alternate should Auckland be unavailable.

Seems a waste for all the larger long hall planes to carry an additional hour of fuel, so they can reach Christchurch as an alternative. Hamilton would seem like a good candidate. already has a 2km runway, with a bunch of space at one end.

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#3054108 24-Mar-2023 13:28

Scott3:

Separating the regional & jet domestic terminals seems, well odd.

Would make Auckland a relatively unattractive place to transfer (regional to jet), so would have quite an impact on the NZ regional network. (a 30min transfer time is a bit hard with a terminal change).

I agree that having separate terminals is questionable. An unpleasant side-effect of saving some money by repurposing the old international terminal as the domestic.

I don't do enough international flying, so pardon if I've got it wrong...

If you're transferring domestic->international at Auckland, don't you need to check-in your bags at Auckland for the international leg? In which case (pardon the pun), the 30 min transfer time isn't relevant, since you have to check-in a couple of hours before your flight. Going the other way, you have to collect your bags for Customs. In which case, you would be unlikely to get through Customs & Immigration in 30 minutes.

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#3054119 24-Mar-2023 13:41

frankv:

Scott3:

Separating the regional & jet domestic terminals seems, well odd.

Would make Auckland a relatively unattractive place to transfer (regional to jet), so would have quite an impact on the NZ regional network. (a 30min transfer time is a bit hard with a terminal change).

I agree that having separate terminals is questionable. An unpleasant side-effect of saving some money by repurposing the old international terminal as the domestic.

I don't do enough international flying, so pardon if I've got it wrong...

If you're transferring domestic->international at Auckland, don't you need to check-in your bags at Auckland for the international leg? In which case (pardon the pun), the 30 min transfer time isn't relevant, since you have to check-in a couple of hours before your flight. Going the other way, you have to collect your bags for Customs. In which case, you would be unlikely to get through Customs & Immigration in 30 minutes.

Being based in Auckland I haven't done a domestic to international transfer to comment, but assume one would want to allow at least 3 hours.

30mins was referring to a domestic (regional to jet) transfer.

afe66

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#3054130 24-Mar-2023 13:54

Having done Dunedin to Auckland to Sydney (ANZ) a fortnight ago, I checked luggage in at Dunedin and picked them up at Sydney.

Pleasant walk from domestic to international terminals with hand luggage only. On return I collected luggage in international and went through customs and walked to domestic.

My partner did exactly same one week ago.

I missed my domestic flight to dunedin and my partner nearly missed hers but that was due to customs/buisecurity chaos and nothing to do with a 10 minute walk between terminals.

I'd prefer separate domestic and international rather than splitting jet and propeller domestic as I said earlier.

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#3054142 24-Mar-2023 14:08

If you are travelling on one ticket (same PNR), for example PMR-AKL-SYD, then you will more than likely be able to through-check your bags to SYD when you check in at PMR. Where difficulties arise is where the legs are separately ticketed, in which case bags must be collected and rechecked for each leg.

Internationally, inbound to AKL bags must be collected because of customs and ag clearance requirements. For onwards domestic legs on the same carrier, the bags can then be rechecked-in in the international terminal, no need to drag them along the green line to domestic.

Hamilton (HLZ) would be a useless alternate, even with a 3km runway. It is so close to AKL that the same weather that would normally require AKL to need an alternate will more than likely be rolling through the Waikato. HLZ, along with CHC and DUD probably are the most fog affected airports in NZ.

edit: reworded for clarity and in light of afe66 comments.

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